44 replies to this topic

[tiger99]

I would just make one point, which has already been touched on above. People here with knowledge or some or all parts of a Mini answer questions because we like things to be done correctly and safely. We don't have to, as we are all volunteers. I frequent certain other unrelated forums too, and the same thing applies. It is regarded as downright rude to ask questions on any forum which you can find the answers to yourself, easily. If you have a Mini you NEED at least a Haynes manual, therefore you do have an easy and quick way of getting basic answers without wasting the precious time of others. There are far too many questions like that, where a quick look in the manual or a glance at a good parts site like Somerford would provide an immediate answer, without having someone else do your work for you. It is entirely unreasonable to expect complete strangers do do what you just can not be bothered to do. To put it bluntly, it is downright laziness. If you are capable of maintaining a Mini, you are capable of looking up a manual.

[ACDodd]

The sprocket is THE part which controls/determines the cam end float. The end float has to be measured with the sprocket fitted. This is the clearnces which then has to be set between 0.003 & 0.007".

AC

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

I would just make one point, which has already been touched on above. People here with knowledge or some or all parts of a Mini answer questions because we like things to be done correctly and safely. We don't have to, as we are all volunteers. I frequent certain other unrelated forums too, and the same thing applies. It is regarded as downright rude to ask questions on any forum which you can find the answers to yourself, easily. If you have a Mini you NEED at least a Haynes manual, therefore you do have an easy and quick way of getting basic answers without wasting the precious time of others. There are far too many questions like that, where a quick look in the manual or a glance at a good parts site like Somerford would provide an immediate answer, without having someone else do your work for you. It is entirely unreasonable to expect complete strangers do do what you just can not be bothered to do. To put it bluntly, it is downright laziness. If you are capable of maintaining a Mini, you are capable of looking up a manual.

Ok, steady on, don't wet your pants! I was only asking one question, just incase AC knew it off hand and whilst i had my ipad in my hand. I think you have just wasted your time writing ' war and peace' above. Whats this....the question police?

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

The sprocket is THE part which controls/determines the cam end float. The end float has to be measured with the sprocket fitted. This is the clearnces which then has to be set between 0.003 & 0.007".

AC

I don't whether to ask this quetion now, but hey what the hell ( see above).Is the endfloat measurement, the measurement of sideways movement of the cam? And when you say sprocket are you talking about the timing gear cog? Cheers

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

The sprocket is THE part which controls/determines the cam end float. The end float has to be measured with the sprocket fitted. This is the clearnces which then has to be set between 0.003 & 0.007".

AC

I don't whether to ask this quetion now, but hey what the hell ( see above).Is the endfloat measurement, the measurement of sideways movement of the cam? And when you say sprocket are you talking about the timing gear cog? Cheers

So does the sprocket rub against the outside of the triangle plate? With the cog on and torqued up to 90 nm, theres still 0.016"!

[Ethel]

The sprocket bolts to the cam to form a groove, the triangular plate sits in that groove and provides the thrust faces to control the endfloat in both directions. The oil pump is on the other end of cam and its rotor needs to be free floating too, so you can't have the cam or pump pushing against each other.

There are 2 topics pinned at the front of this techie section - "before posting" & "torque settings", we could all get back to being friends if you read them

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

The sprocket bolts to the cam to form a groove, the triangular plate sits in that groove and provides the thrust faces to control the endfloat in both directions. The oil pump is on the other end of cam and its rotor needs to be free floating too, so you can't have the cam or pump pushing against each other.
is techie section

There are 2 topics pinned at the front of this techie section - "before posting" & "torque settings", we could all get back to being friends if you read them

Thanks ethel, the voice of reason. I like the calming green writing. Is it the end of the world with 0.016" movement? Fyi did search before asking original question

[Ethel]

It is on the large side, I suppose the distributor drive gear will cause a bias to push the cam in one direction or the other, I'd have to scratch my head to figure out which. As Doddy says, if the thrust plate isn't worn your only option is to machine the sprocket to put it right. Too big a gap will rob oil circulation going up to the rockers.

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

It is on the large side, I suppose the distributor drive gear will cause a bias to push the cam in one direction or the other, I'd have to scratch my head to figure out which. As Doddy says, if the thrust plate isn't worn your only option is to machine the sprocket to put it right. Too big a gap will rob oil circulation going up to the rockers.

The thing is all i have changed is the oil pump and the thrust plate. It was all really tight with no side movement when i put it all together out of the car and now ive drop the block in, its flopping about. The sprocket was ok before.

[Ethel]

Something else would have to be holding the cam & sprocket apart, I'm not sure what. Did you have the woodruff key installed? That's all I can think of.

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

Something else would have to be holding the cam & sprocket apart, I'm not sure what. Did you have the woodruff key installed? That's all I can think of.

The only thing i can think of is that i put the block back in without the timing plate on and fitted the plate afterwards. Maybe the halfmoon seal is sticking out too much, but i would have thought the triangle plate bolts would have compressed the seal enough. Whats the normal done thing when putting the block back on, with or without the timing plate on at first?

[tiger99]

It is usual to fully assemble the block before putting it back on the transmission, but there is nothing that says that you have to do it that way. At one time it was common to cut out the metal between two of the slots in the inner wing, so that with the radiator removed, also rocker cover, rocker assembly and push rods, it was possible to change the camshaft in situ. Easier on a non-A+, or non-1275, because you had to be able to raise the cam followers somehow.

The half moon seal is nowhere near the camshaft, and if the lower part of the engine front plate has been torqued down correctly against the gasket, I can't see why it would have anything to do with the problem, which would seem to be due only to the sprocket not seating fully on the camshaft. It is the gap between the back face of the sprocket and the fromt face of the camshaft journal, as has been said, which sets the gap into which the thrust plate runs, and even if the thrust plate was not fully in position, it would still run with the same clearance.

Is there a bit of dirt or swarf, or something else, between the sprocket and camshaft?

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

It is usual to fully assemble the block before putting it back on the transmission, but there is nothing that says that you have to do it that way. At one time it was common to cut out the metal between two of the slots in the inner wing, so that with the radiator removed, also rocker cover, rocker assembly and push rods, it was possible to change the camshaft in situ. Easier on a non-A+, or non-1275, because you had to be able to raise the cam followers somehow.

The half moon seal is nowhere near the camshaft, and if the lower part of the engine front plate has been torqued down correctly against the gasket, I can't see why it would have anything to do with the problem, which would seem to be due only to the sprocket not seating fully on the camshaft. It is the gap between the back face of the sprocket and the fromt face of the camshaft journal, as has been said, which sets the gap into which the thrust plate runs, and even if the thrust plate was not fully in position, it would still run with the same clearance.

Is there a bit of dirt or swarf, or something else, between the sprocket and camshaft?

Well, after taking it all apart, cleaning and putting it back together its now nearer 0.020". Tried it with and with out the oil pump on and it came out the same. Am I right in thinking, If there is wear on the old triangle plate, then presumeably there will be wear on the cam. Anybody recommend a good quality timing gear or shall i go bananas and get a belt driven or veneer set up?

[Ethel]

The only parts involved are the camshaft, sprocket, thrust plate, and the woodruff key & nut.

Assemble them off the the engine to get a better look:

Does the sprocket fit cleanly on the cam with the woodruff key installed? Try with & without the key, but with the slots aligned. Make sure the mating faces of the cam and sprocket are clean & burr free, if the sprocket's bore has a sharp edge you could try chamfering it so it can't "shoulder" against the corresponding corner on the cam.
Can the nut be screwed far enough on to the cam? Make sure the gap between it and the pulley is less than the thickness of the lock washer.
Measure the thickness of the thrust plate and compare it with any others you can lay your hands on.
While it's installed on the engine, measure the gap with your feelers in several places to ensure it's equal & the faces are parallel to each other.

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

The only parts involved are the camshaft, sprocket, thrust plate, and the woodruff key & nut.

Assemble them off the the engine to get a better look:

Does the sprocket fit cleanly on the cam with the woodruff key installed? Try with & without the key, but with the slots aligned. Make sure the mating faces of the cam and sprocket are clean & burr free, if the sprocket's bore has a sharp edge you could try chamfering it so it can't "shoulder" against the corresponding corner on the cam.
Can the nut be screwed far enough on to the cam? Make sure the gap between it and the pulley is less than the thickness of the lock washer.
Measure the thickness of the thrust plate and compare it with any others you can lay your hands on.
While it's installed on the engine, measure the gap with your feelers in several places to ensure it's equal & the faces are parallel to each other.

Ok cheers