59 replies to this topic

[Skortchio]

(Excuse the narration )

Edited by Skortchio, 21 December 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[retrodave]

There are so many variables to think about as mentioned already, and is it a scientific approach or a real world approach your thinking of. If so then you have to take into account driver reaction etc. I owned a supercharged cooper S and just from the driving experience was convinced that my 1380 mk1 felt a lot quicker in comparison. Then one day I was in a position shall we say to test out my theory, for the most part I appeared to be right, however only to a certain terminal speed, but thankfully the classic mini had made its point by this time and the bmw mini driver pulled up next to me smiled widely, and gave me a cheeky salute haha. Very nice track eutectic cough, cough.

For the record my mk1 weighs in at a tad under 700kg, produces 130hp approx (flywheel), 112lbs of torque, s/c close ratio gearbox and 3.7 final drive, and has a terminal of 112mph. I have to be honest and say that during the experiment there was never a time where the bmw mini was making any ground at all, in fact I pulled a considerable distance from him. I am familiar with big power cars having owned a few monsters in my time, but doing it in a mini is just more fun, and modern car owners hate it being done to them, well some, and some just laugh in disbelief.

[1984mini25]

wouldn't the extra weight of the Bini with it's fatter tyres give it more traction over the lightweight mini on small skinny wheels/tyres.

[Ethel]

BHP per tonne -

BMW Mini Cooper S - 1210kg seems to be the weight.

1210 / 1000 = 1.21 tonnes

180bhp / 1.21 tonnes - 148.76BHP/Tonne



Classic mini - 650kg I believe at max althou it says 645kg

650 / 1000 = 0.65

100bhp / 0.65 tonnes - 153.84BHP/Tonne


So according to my figures, a classic mini at 100bhp should be faster atleast at the start than the new BMW mini. Maybe top end, probably not as more gears and larger engine but off the line and hopefully up to 80/90 mph, id guess the classic mini be faster

I'm afraid it's much more complicated then that, for a start you only have peak power at one particular rpm.
Acceleration, at least at the start, is more to do with torque, and the BINI has much, much more of that then a standard mini does.

Dave

Good point, I'd draw a different conclusion, but first power is just torque x revs, so gear ratios redress differences in engine torque. Of course there'll be a limit to revs as well, and gearing is available as a tactic to all engines - torquey or revvy.

The conclusion: Acceleration is about weight just as much as torque (at the wheels). Torque varies with what revs you are turning through what gear ratio, but light weight is a constant advantage. If a Mini has half the weight of its competition, then it always needs just half the increase in torque to accelerate the same. With the same power unit as the competition it would be like having their car (weight-wise) with an extra engine.

The same applies to traction - a heavy car needs proportionally more to put down the extra torque it needs to accelerate as quickly.

[cliche]

It's a bit ridiculous really to try to compare a 55 year-old design with a modern design. There is no comparison as they are, quite simply, completely different.
A Mini is a true classic car and the comparison should be with other classic cars.
When the Mini was introduced there were no questions like 'how much power would a 1929 Austin 7 need to beat a 1964 Cooper 'S'' although that would be a similar type of comparison.

I agree.

I always thought that my '94 V12 Daimler was fast and modern, but it was designed back in the '70's. Driving modern cars made me realise how inadequate the brakes and acceleration was compared to today.

That's why I went with an SW5 cam and shooting for 80BHP maximum on my '94 Spi restoration.
Drivability won over than trying to compete with a modern design. Trying to update my V12 was having diminishing returns

[retrodave]

I have no issues using my car daily and driving normally, it does a fine job, it all depends on the cars overall set up, from cam choice etc etc. open the taps on mine though and its a whole different ball game. I find the c/r box makes a huge difference to, none of that dropping off cam then waiting for it to pick up back onto the power band as you normally get with std box ratio's.

The minis need a fair bit more thought when tuning for fast road or track, ultimately you always have to compromise, as you will either have great acceleration, or decent-ish top end performance, well within reason, its not really an ideal shape for top speed as it has the aerodynamics of a small brick, and only 4 gears in most cases.

To many also aim for ultimate power, which is fine if your playing gran tourismo, but in the real world there are cut off points when to much power is wasted and can not be physically put down on the tarmac. Straight line escapades in a mini isn't ideal either, on the twisty bits is where the mini package if done well comes into its element. The best way to go about tuning any car is to maintain a tight balance between performance, suspension, breaking, every element requires equal attention, eg. its utterly pointless to just go for more power and have poor suspension set up, I have driven many a well set up underdog of a car and they have shone on track, I have also driven high powered poorly set up cars, they were just entertaining in some cases, but ultimately useless, well except for terrifying passengers and marshals.

Oh and yes for the majority of classic's they are just to dam heavy, great powerful engines, and yes "fast" in their day, but built like tanks, so just more burden on brakes and suspension. But most modern cars are made out of tin foil, so it just comes back to power to weight ratio.

Edited by retrodave, 21 December 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Cooperman]

Any aerodynamics as well.
To give an example of how ludicrous it is to compare the Classic Mini with the BMW BINI, let's look at the equivalent in aircraft terms. There was the Hawker Typhoon in 1944 and there is the Eurofighter Typhoon of 2000. Would anyone ask what it would take for a 1944 Typhoon to beat a Eurofighter Typhoon? The Hawker Aircraft Co. became part of BAC, then B.Ae, who designed a lot of the new Typhoon, so there is a very small degree of continuity, but no comparison could ever be made.
There cannot be any comparison between Mini & BINI as they are so completely different in age, concept and performance.

[Noah]

Okay, in answer to the original post. As this has just turned into an Argument....


How fast would a A classic mini need to be to beat a BMW Mini Cooper S.

Answer: Mucking Quick!

Done.

[Mini_Magic]

I love how people obsess with "beating" new Minis, like they've got to prove something.

Just be happy with your classic car and stop worrying about it.

[retrodave]

If i hadn't got a bmw one I wouldn't have returned to a classic one to be honest, so am no hater, and I thought by my first post I answered the thread more or less, or should I have been more blunt?? YOU WILL NEED AT LEAST A PROPER 130HP+ for a look in. (which aint cheap to achieve either). Other than that I am with some others, just be happy with the way it is, because there will always be someone faster with more money to throw at their cars. One other reason I came away from 600+ hp jap rockets.

[Pelvisgt]

I'm happy with my classic mini just working how it should be

At castle comb I was surprised how well the classics did against the new minis so that made me smile !

[Jake Didsbury]

Ive never been bothered about my mini been really quick, in my opinion its all about the road holding ability, thats where the mini really comes into its own. Ive had cars with 3 and 4 times the power not keep up with me round corners and round abouts, and I only have a standard suspension setup .

You can make a bath tub go fast in a straight line, it takes a car to corner ;) ...... the mini

just my opinion anyway

[Jake Didsbury]

Ive never been bothered about my mini been really quick although the thought of a fast weekend mini has crossed my mind, in my opinion its all about the road holding ability, thats where the mini really comes into its own. Ive had cars with 3 and 4 times the power not keep up with me round corners and round abouts, and I only have a standard suspension setup .

You can make a bath tub go fast in a straight line, it takes a car to corner ;) ...... the mini

just my opinion anyway


dont know why I posted twice either, sorry

Edited by Jake Didsbury, 18 February 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[Jake Didsbury]

Any aerodynamics as well.
To give an example of how ludicrous it is to compare the Classic Mini with the BMW BINI, let's look at the equivalent in aircraft terms. There was the Hawker Typhoon in 1944 and there is the Eurofighter Typhoon of 2000. Would anyone ask what it would take for a 1944 Typhoon to beat a Eurofighter Typhoon? The Hawker Aircraft Co. became part of BAC, then B.Ae, who designed a lot of the new Typhoon, so there is a very small degree of continuity, but no comparison could ever be made.
There cannot be any comparison between Mini & BINI as they are so completely different in age, concept and performance.

'Would anyone ask what it would take for a 1944 Typhoon to beat a Eurofighter Typhoon?'

A vast improvement in its airframe strength and its thrust / drag ratio!, not to mention all the other problems that come with it lol

[Kam]

Am curious as to how much bhp a classic mini would need to beat a BMW 175bhp mini?

My current engine is being tuned up to about 90bhp, hopefully 100bhp. Would this be enough or would the car need more?

More curiousity than anything else.

Thanks

Haha that sounds like to me you know someone with a cooper S or see a cooper S round your way...don't worry it happens to everyone

Your talking about being on the road here right? One downside you've got is your mini track and wheelbase VS a bini for traffic light GP stuff, you will need more than 100bhp and a pretty light mini but I doubt that would still be enough. Give yourself his bhp at 175 (or whatever it is) and even then don't assume its a done deal, you've still got the issue with putting down that power with a mini track and gearing, saying that - it does help!