33 replies to this topic

[Hegnirst]

The 276 is a '*******' cam, the only cam I've ever fitted for anybody else, that hasn't resulted in disappointment is the 286............

well you cant of built them very well then! sorry but that is complete balls

LOL and what were your results with it then ? I tried a 276 and replaced it with a 286, which was no more peaky than the 276 but much faster............
Also fitted one to a member in our club mini and he hated it and went back to the MG cam he had in previously............

and that means its rubbish does it?
they deliver there power and different places obviously the 286 being higher, dependant on where you change gear theres no reason why a 286 would be 'better' than a 276 on a piece of paper yes, but in reality, surely, its to do with the driver? i was thinking of going with a piper 285 just for the record....

[racingbob]

the mg metro cam is a fantastic road cam a pure joy

i realy hate getting out of my car cant express how good it is

and the engine will last

[Artful Dodger]

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

[Hegnirst]

and that means its rubbish does it?
they deliver there power and different places obviously the 286 being higher, dependant on where you change gear theres no reason why a 286 would be 'better' than a 276 on a piece of paper yes, but in reality, surely, its to do with the driver? i was thinking of going with a piper 285 just for the record....

Errr yes.......if the cams as peaky why not fit the cam gives more at the top end.........try it you wont be disappointed........

hmmmmmm what to dooooo

[Artful Dodger]

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

Which is why I now run a 649............

Right. That's the last straw. Returning the 286 and getting the Kent race cam.

[holmesy]

stick the 286 mate I want to compare ours once they done

[iMurray]

i don't know what we're yelling about

[Cooperman]

To be more specific, Kent Cams Graphs show the following:

266 Peak power at 5900 rpm Peak torque at 4300 rpm

276 Peak power at 6100 rpm Peak torque at 4900 rpm

286 Peak power at 6500 rpm Peak torque at 5600 rpm

296 Peak power at 6900 rpm Peak torque at 5600 rpm

Consider that to get the absolute best performance out of an engine it is necessary to keep between a bit below peak torque and a bit above peak power, depending on when and why you require the power & torque and the above will help to decide which cam will suit you best and what gearing you will need to stay 'on the cam'. These are a guide as the power, torque and where it all happens is also a function of the head, induction and exhaust and the build quality.

Then there eis the Kent 310 which gives peak power at 8000 rpm and peak torque at 5700 to 6600 rpm (graph is a straight line between those revs, but the torque is less than the other cams).

I hope this helps.

[MRA]

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

Just ask yourself why would David Vizard & Kent Cams decide to design & manufacture the MD "range" Note the word range !

The 649 is an oooolllld cam for people that either have to use it for the class of racing they do or people that are simply technophobe's !

The 276 is similar to the MG cam however it has been proven that the A series likes more lift, the MD 276 gives more lift than the MG cam, some race series have to use the MG camshaft.

A 296 is a race cam and you won't get much below about 3500, and then 5500 it will pick up and pin you to your seat, however it really only works well with weber carburrettor/s (ie splits) a 3into1 (all 3 joining just under the floor) and a very big open cylinder head, so it starts to get very expensive...

Whereas a 1300 (ish) can be built up using a lot of your existing parts and still be a good engine with a 276 camshaft.

Also, whilst Peter (Cooperman) is trying to preserve engine blocks, 1330 is by no means as big as you can go... 1360, 1380, 1400, 1430, 1450.

[Artful Dodger]

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

It's a good point..

Are the 276 and 286 really the same in terms of peakiness??

really starting to think I need something a big larger than a 286...

Just ask yourself why would David Vizard & Kent Cams decide to design & manufacture the MD "range" Note the word range !

The 649 is an oooolllld cam for people that either have to use it for the class of racing they do or people that are simply technophobe's !

The 276 is similar to the MG cam however it has been proven that the A series likes more lift, the MD 276 gives more lift than the MG cam, some race series have to use the MG camshaft.

A 296 is a race cam and you won't get much below about 3500, and then 5500 it will pick up and pin you to your seat, however it really only works well with weber carburrettor/s (ie splits) a 3into1 (all 3 joining just under the floor) and a very big open cylinder head, so it starts to get very expensive...

Whereas a 1300 (ish) can be built up using a lot of your existing parts and still be a good engine with a 276 camshaft.

Also, whilst Peter (Cooperman) is trying to preserve engine blocks, 1330 is by no means as big as you can go... 1360, 1380, 1400, 1430, 1450.

Thank you for that. I understand that the race cam will be er.. 'fun' . and the engine you described that would need to go with the cam is exactly what I have.. 1312cc, big valve highly modded head, weber, 7inch comp Maniflow manifold and a 3-1 Maniflow comp manifold.

I did get a 649 for this build. A original one. But as I am using an a series block, I couldn't get the right oil pump and drive for it..

Also, I'm getting a 998 mini miglia engine that was in my 1968 miglia. Full miglia spec, ST pistons, S Rods etc etc. it has the 731 ST can in it. A quick look in the DV book shows that this is going to be a very fruity engine! May fit the 649.. Any experience with the sprint cam?

[Cooperman]

It was not only Timo who used it as a rally cam. For tarmac rallies the 649 was popular because the events used pace notes so the car could be driven on the limit and kept right in the optimum power band.Of course, the ultra high revs didn't matter as a rally car did not normaly do more than 2 events without the engine being stripped and refreshed.
On gravel rallies the 510 was more popular, especially on events like the RAC Rally of GB because pace notes were not permitted and it was quite usual to come into a tightening corner have to thow the car completely sideways and the revs dropped. With the 649 it was easy to 'fall off' the cam and lose time. It was only Timo who still wanted the 649 even then and Rauno said he was crazy.
With those rally cars the final drive ratio was 4.1:1 or even lower and a SC CR gearbox was always fitted. On special stages the revs were normally kept between about 5700 rpm and 7200 rpm. I did a few rallies in 18CRX which was a full works car sold to a private owner with a 1275 engine. It was simply horrible to drive on the roads, but in a special stage - Wow! That had, from memory, a 731 cam.

[Artful Dodger]

Thanks, this engine isn't going to be doing much road use, so I'm not too fussed about the driveability.. The 296 Kent cam should be slightly better than the old 649. They have had enough time to develop it that's for sure! The box has short ratio 0:985 drops, full S/C box and a 4.1:1 diff.
And I am definitely going to change the cam in my miglia 1000 engine then.. If a 731 sprint cam is bad in a 1275.. Then it will be awfully crazy in a 1000! Will put a 649 in.

[MRA]

One thing to consider, is use the best pistons that you can, I use Omega's and have never in over 30 years had any issues with them (other than sometimes hard to obtain)

They are 2/3 of the weight of Nural (AE) equivalents and will be much more reliable with the higher duration (racier type) camshaft.

[MRA]

Another way of looking at it would be, where did he start. Vizard didn't start from scratch, he tweaked and modified around what BMC had already done. When the 649 was designed they where still racing small bore engines and Timo used it as a rally cam.........

This is termed "continual improvement" any of you older folk will be aware of the methods used by some/most Japanese companies, they buy something strip it down and MAKE IT BETTER this is why they out sold all British manufacturers from the late 70's onwards.

Remember "Continual improvement" without it we'd still be in caves.

[Cooperman]

Of course we've now moved on to discussing race cams whereas the OP wants a good road cam. But that's normal 'thread creep'.
Having built Minis with the 649 cam they really are for racing as the idea of driving around the roads at over 5000 rpm all the time is not something many would want to do. I've not used a 296 so can't comment, but I did have a 1071 'S' bored to 1099 cc which had the 649 and a 4.1 FDR. It had everything else needed like light flywheel, big valve head, 11:1 CR, etc. Took it on an historic international rally and it was great until it 'fell off the cam' round a hairpin bend a couple of times and we lost quite a few seconds. Changed it to a 286 and overall the car was more competitive. I also spun it off backwards when it had a 649 as a corner tightened, I lifted, got the car sideways and then needed full power which was not there as the revs had dropped to, I am guessing, about 3700 rpm and it spun (pure driver error).