23 replies to this topic

[minilee94]

I am doing a micra 1.3 16v conversion but I don't fancy paying 325 for subframe and 280 for bottom arm set up from all speed as topic title says who or what company makes subframes

I know I can do it my self but I don't have provision in my garage for a welder etc

Thanks

[KernowCooper]

Not sure anyone makes the specific frame but I'll move this to the micra engine conversion area where the people there will be able to answr it better

[Tupers]

I think you'll struggle to find someone with professional welding experience who could make a frame for less than All Speed.

 

Also All Speed are a well known company with a good reputation and you'll be able to go back to them if you have any issues with the frame down the line. 

[minilee94]

Okay thank you suppose I'll have to spash the cash thanks guys

[Bigedd95]

Mike Thomas owner of cyclone Motorsport in wickford Essex . He can build a subframe for any engine . I you want me to out you in contact with him . Don't think it will be to much either . Should be cheaper than all speed . He's built countless of customs minis ! He's good ! If you want more info of photos message me :) !

[M J W J]

None is the simple answer.

 

All conversions done so far have used a modified mini frame. There is no bolt in conversion like minitec, watson rally or allspeed for the micra engine.

 

People have talked about making kits (even I have as part of my MSc work) but no one has done it so far. It have a working design that has been FEA tested but that is as far as my project went and due to the legal reasons I am not allowed to distribute it or profit from it.

 

After building my own Vauxhall frame I've learnt why Allspeed charge what they do. To build a frame takes a lot of work, to build one that works takes even more. Its not just the costs for production and the materials that go into the frame but its the research and development costs that add up and these have to be recouped.

[Bigedd95]

I believe the one I'm on about is just bolt it . Like I said mike is good ! He has done countless of front and rear wheel drive mini all designed on geometry software . If you want to know more like I said just message me
.

[R1mini]

I don't know how allspeed makes money from supplying a bare frame for £325, if you break down the figures, let say, £100 for overheads, £100 for all the laser cut bits, tubing, machining, folding, etc, £125 for the welding and fabrication. I obviously don't know the true figures but they have got to there or thereabouts

 

Either way I don't see how he actually makes any profit from £325, anyway they do come up seconhhand now and then

 

Cheers

David

Edited by R1mini, 05 July 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[ibrooks]

Economies of scale - they own the laser cutting machine, the milling machine, the folding machine etc. so having the parts cut, bent etc. only takes a few minutes and a bit of electricity which likely amounts to a couple of quid per part. The huge front end investment in all that kit is spread among all the jobs it does and if you can keep it busy then again a few quid per job will likely see it pay for itself and it's maintenance.

 

Steel - again they will be buying in bulk so it costs them less than it would cost us.

 

Patterns and jigs - again there's a front end investment in someone's time to develop them but once it's done it doesn't need to be done again so if you can absorb the initial cost and then spread that out amongst say the first 10 items you make then number 11 is putting cash back in your pocket (OK maybe number 11 pays the interest and No.12 is profit but you get the idea).

 

Assembly - again they will have guys (and gals maybe) who are doing this type of stuff all day, every day plus they've honed the design so all the parts fit closely first time so I doubt it takes them more than an hour to actually assemble and weld a subframe.

 

Joe Bloggs in his shed/garage is not going to be able to compete until it comes to a one-off that they aren't tooled up for. Even this is becoming less common as the machinery is getting easier and easier to re-confiure for limited run jobs. Here at work they are looking at a rapid prototyping facility for circuit boards as our industry doesn't generally require huge volumes so they are looking to make a batch of a few tens of boards with an easy option to go back in a few years time to make another one the same if one goes faulty during it's service life or maybe another dozen or so if the customer decides they want some more.

 

Iain

[M J W J]

ibrooks.

 

They don't churn out frames day in and day out. If you look at the lead time on their products I would guess that they are building them to order. If they were churning them out constantly there wouldn't be the wait and think of the number of new threads that would get started every week in the engine conversion sector.

 

Mini conversion parts are only a part of what Allspeed Engineering Ltd do. They also build mechanical equipment for the disabled which is used in care homes. I'm guessing they probably make a lot more of them than they do mini conversion frames.

 

My modified frame for just the materials alone came to about £100

[ibrooks]

Like I said - the economy of scale. I'm fully aware that they don't just make Mini subframes. Read what I said -

 

The machinery is probably bought and paid for by their other work and the Mini stuff is just slipped in as and when they've got a slack time (probably a contributing factor to the lead times).

 

Buying steel in bulk - again the Mini stuff is piggy-backing on their main business.

 

Assembly - "they will have guys (and gals maybe) who are doing this type of stuff all day, every day". I didn't say (and didn't think for a minute) that they were welding up Mini subframes day-in-day-out. Welding a tubular framework together is pretty much the same whether it's a Mini subframe or a tail-lift for a wheel-chair or a hoist for getting someone in and out of a bath. Again they'll probably do the Mini stuff on low priority as and when a fabricator has a slack day (or maybe even as an apprentice job with a supervisor checking each part as they are finished).

 

So the only Mini specific part is the patterns and jigs and even then I'll bet the skill and equipment to do it quickly has originated in other work. A subframe isn't exactly rocket science so a simple one wouldn't have taken long to design when you have the professional people and kit. Quite likely someone with some influence in the company was a Mini enthusiast but wanted a Vauxhall engine in their Mini so they did the design work in their spare time and had it built at work - then came the idea that they could sell more of these subframes as a sideline and from there variants were also designed and built. The design work and jigs were probably "free" as far as the company is concerned - again maybe exercises for the apprentices.

 

I'd bet good money that their profit margin on a subframe is approaching 50%.

 

Here where I work a lot of internal tooling and fixtures are made by the apprentices as exercises and practice pieces. It's almost free as far as the company is concerned since they would otherwise be doing make-work but the shop-floor would grind to a halt without the stuff. An engineering firm in the town I live in has made numerous sculptures and whatnot that they have donated to the town - again it's the apprentices that have done the work so the regular staff are still getting on with the paid jobs and the company gets a huge amount of kudos and advertising for the cost of some materials and the time of the apprentices (which is being subsidised by the government training budget anyhow).

 

Iain

[l_jonez]

My modified frame for just the materials alone came to about £100

My first frame came in at around £30 I'm about to build a second and I bought 7m of 30x30x3 box section (local steel supplier) for £15

[ibrooks]

Got to admit that one caused a raised eyebrow with me too - the stuff I've used so far on mine was lying around in the "big enough to be used someday" pile of metal. If I had to buy it I'd be surprised if I paid over £50 for full lengths and they would be more than enough for a subframe.

 

Iain

[R1mini]

If your hapy to use your original towers ( which I would be no problem) then, basically what you have to buy is some box section and a little 5mm flat plate, maybe some box section as well, for a basic jig, It can end up very cheap. If you start laser cutting, machining and welding completely new tower assemblies then the will cost go up quite a bit.

 

Rarely have I been impressed with home built subframes and some of them are horrific and look dangerous

 

Cheers

David

[M J W J]

 

My modified frame for just the materials alone came to about £100

My first frame came in at around £30 I'm about to build a second and I bought 7m of 30x30x3 box section (local steel supplier) for £15

 

 

That should have said micra frame not modified. Oops.

 

My modified frame is probably around £50 including the range rover mounts.

 

The design for the micra frame I designed for my MSc project would be around £100 for a one off but that is built from scratch not just a modified mini frame. It uses 4 different thicknesses of steel which adds to the cost. Not ideal but it was the only way I could get it to conform with impact loading without it being horrendously heavy. Produce more and the cost would come down a bit but I can't see it coming down by loads. Start laser cutting and machining parts properly and the cost will go up (my frame was designed with laser cutting in mind)