90 replies to this topic

[Deejayry]

I cannot give first hand experience on coil springs, but i do know of one person who fitted some on his mini, he kept them on for about 6 months before returning to rubber cones, he never mentioned issues such as coil bind, he just didn't like the ride.

 

personally i would never even consider running coil springs or even a coil over setup on any A series engined mini. the only real reason for this view is that i am a bit of a purist, there are plenty of choices of different Rubber cone setups, there is the original rubber cone, the slightly stiffer "red dot" cone and then the much stiffer and taller "yellow spot" cone, all of these can be matched with your choice of damper to give the ride you like, The yellow spot cones are a bit specialised and require modified hilos on the front to get a suitable ride height and should only be used with adjustable dampers of the correct length. For those who want a smooth ride there is the moulton smooth-a-ride kit available, which consists of a set of cones with a softer spring rate and a set of matching dampers.

[surfblue]

 

It's that passengers don't like the ride that much. Used to fancy modern cars.

 

I'd be telling them that buses have modern, smooth air suspension !

[bluecooper95]

I did not mean to be rude to anyone. It's just annoying when people dismiss an idea although they have never experienced this. I have asked the cones vs coils question else where and I get the same response.

The general consensus is cones are better when at their optimum.

Cheap coils can have their issues

And coils are for comfort

[MyloChunk]

Donuts all the way, I had coil springs on my mini and whenever I had 3 or 4 people in the car it always scraped on the wheel arch always scraped the wheel even when my hi-lo's were on the highest setting. Put donuts on, lowered the mini had 4 people in and walla! Perfect!

[MiniMonty]

I did not mean to be rude to anyone. It's just annoying when people dismiss an idea although they have never experienced this. I have asked the cones vs coils question else where and I get the same response.

The general consensus is cones are better when at their optimum.

Cheap coils can have their issues

And coils are for comfort

 

 

I haven't seen you being rude to anyone mate - don't sweat it...

 

Springs vs Rubber is a debate like 20w/40  vs  10w/40  and impossible to answer definitively.

If you are a road racing looney short springs might be best - if you take three kids to school everyday it's rubber all the way.

 

If you can, try to get a a ride in a car with springs - then you can form an opinion from experience.

Check out the regional sections of the forum and see if someone near you has a springy car.

They'll love to give you a go...

 

It might help if the Minitastic website was a bit better;  a few videos, some "user friendly" technical info etc.

It might help if we could see some comparison vids on YouTube of sprung and rubbered cars taking the same speed bump

at the same speed.

Anyone up for turning out a bit of Hollywood... ?

 

As for purists - well...  They're just the purists.  

I think very few people on the forum have (or even want) a "pure" Mini.

I'll always improve mine whenever I can. New (and better than original) alternator,

carbs, halogen lights, a horn which has half a chance of scaring a squirrel on the bonnet, wipers which actually move water,

posh wheels (who hasn't ditched the steelies)?   blah blah blah..  

 

The purists really go for it - and good for them - it's really nice to see those cars at shows.

But standard humans who use their cars as cars will modify, adapt and amend to suit their needs, their tastes

and their whims.

 

Have no shame and have no fear. 

It's your car and we're all glad you're keeping another Mini on the road. 

 

Keep both feet on the wheel and do what you feel.

 

Life is short - if you want springs just go and get 'em then post a thread about how it all works out.

[Tamworthbay]

I did not mean to be rude to anyone. It's just annoying when people dismiss an idea although they have never experienced this. I have asked the cones vs coils question else where and I get the same response.
The general consensus is cones are better when at their optimum.
Cheap coils can have their issues
And coils are for comfort

 
 
I haven't seen you being rude to anyone mate - don't sweat it...
 
Springs vs Rubber is a debate like 20w/40  vs  10w/40  and impossible to answer definitively.
If you are a road racing looney short springs might be best - if you take three kids to school everyday it's rubber all the way.
 
If you can, try to get a a ride in a car with springs - then you can form an opinion from experience.
Check out the regional sections of the forum and see if someone near you has a springy car.
They'll love to give you a go...
 
It might help if the Minitastic website was a bit better;  a few videos, some "user friendly" technical info etc.
It might help if we could see some comparison vids on YouTube of sprung and rubbered cars taking the same speed bump
at the same speed.
Anyone up for turning out a bit of Hollywood... ?
 
As for purists - well...  They're just the purists.  
I think very few people on the forum have (or even want) a "pure" Mini.
I'll always improve mine whenever I can. New (and better than original) alternator,
carbs, halogen lights, a horn which has half a chance of scaring a squirrel on the bonnet, wipers which actually move water,
posh wheels (who hasn't ditched the steelies)?   blah blah blah..  
 
The purists really go for it - and good for them - it's really nice to see those cars at shows.
But standard humans who use their cars as cars will modify, adapt and amend to suit their needs, their tastes
and their whims.
 
Have no shame and have no fear. 
It's your car and we're all glad you're keeping another Mini on the road. 
 
Keep both feet on the wheel and do what you feel.
 
Life is short - if you want springs just go and get 'em then post a thread about how it all works out.

Saying people who have driving and racing minis longer than most of us have been alive are talking out their backside is not rude? Hmmm, I have different standards to you obviously. Let's be honest for once, the people who shout loudest about them, in my experience, do so because they don't want to admit they have wasted £200. You only need to look above at the replies where people have been sucked in but then had the sense to realise that they made a mistake and switched back to cones. Have no shame, have no fear, have no money.

[Cooperman]

I still await the comparison figures for deflection v applied load for rubber cones and coil springs. Clearly there will be different rubber cones and different springs so there should be several graphs.

If it is being said that the rubber bump stops are what stops coils from going coil-bound then the final spring load is applied by a rubber spring.

I can't help being an engineer and so the calculations are what defines how different springs will work.

Coil springs were originally used in racing where the initial rate of the rubber springs was too low and thus high rate coils reduced the body roll at low deflections. That is ideal. Then someone decided that there was money in selling coil spring conversions and made some springs which were/are apparently low in initial deflection rate and which, presumably, increase rapidly in rate as the deflection increases at a non-linear rate.

If I intended to seriously race a Mini I would definitely fit ultra-high-rate coils.

For the road I am finding it hard to find an engineering-based reason, rather than sales 'puff'.

Where are the comparison figures? I mean, when comparing the suitability of cams there are cam graphs which show where power and torque are delivered by each cam, so the engineering comparison can be made. This does not seem to exist for coil springs. I wonder why that is the case.

[mingy]

If the spring was superior to the doughnuts would it be fair to say that Issigonis and his designers would have used springs,then again does anyone know if they tried springs during the design process.
Also, i did not know that the doughnuts deteriorated after 5 years or so. In that case would i find a huge difference if i changed my 19 year old or older doughnuts for new ones and, if so what would you guys suggest for a fast road / rally setup.
Please accept the latter questions in all honesty, as i do not want to offend anyone on the forum in any way shape or form.

PS. My next door neighbour is a litigation lawyer should i feel the need to use him..............

[Cooperman]

It keeps on being said that the rubber spring cones deteriorate after 5 years. Mine have been in my rally 'S' since it was finished in 1995. It's done 32 rallies and they still seem fine. I did fit the very best 'as original' ones from Mini Spares and they really have been no problem at all. The rally car doesn't have Hi-Los and I have raised it by adding washers between trumpet base & knuckle joint ball.

[mab01uk]

If the spring was superior to the doughnuts would it be fair to say that Issigonis and his designers would have used springs,then again does anyone know if they tried springs during the design process.
 

 

The original intention was to use Moultons Hydrolastic suspension for the Mini but it was not ready in time for the 1959 launch so Issigonis used Moultons cruder rubber suspension as a stop gap, he had previously experimented with rubber suspension on his lightweight special race car and at Alvis. Hydrolastic first appeared in the BMC 1100 range from 1962 and the Mini in 1964 but the Mini reverted to rubber cones in 1971 due to cost saving measures. Issigonis designed the 9X Mini replacement with coil spring suspension but the project was cancelled by the BL takeover of BMC in 1969......most modern superminis today use coil spring suspension, Hydrogas suspension was also rejected by BMW during its development by Rover of the New MINI on grounds of cost......much to Alex Moultons disapointment.

 

Rubber cone springs met the requirement of varying rate with increased load -- important in a small car where four occupants, instead of one, added more than 30 percent to the laden weight -- and also had the advantage of being compact and entirely contained within the structure of the Mini's subframes.

Dunlop and Moulton Developments took some time to make a Hydrolastic unit small enough to fit in a Mini, but it was done by the early 1960s. The majority of the Mini’s racing and rallying success was achieved with Hydrolastic cars.

Edited by mab01uk, 06 November 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[jmmini]

Speaking as someone who has driven both the cone and spring (red springs) I would not use the springs if I was given them again. They feel 'laggy' with standard shocks and imo the tight feel of the mini with the cones goes away. So I suppose they are comfy, but who wants a comfy mini?

[bluecooper95]

Just seen a wheeler dealers episode with a mini mike. They put springs in that. What's the opinion of that ;)

Thank you guys. I will probably stay with cones. That and mini tastic website is dire

[klivins]

Interesting. Because I knew nothing about it, I fitted coilovers years ago. Big mistake. Now back to cones, the smootha ride ones. I have tried coil springs in a friend's mini. Lacks the rising rate in my opinion.
I am sure someone here will have experience with hidrolastic suspension. Why was it developed in first place, and how does it feel on the road?

[dp0352]

Can you show me an S class BMW? Id like to see one of these

 

 
Close enough? 

Attached Files

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Edited by dp0352, 07 November 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Vipernoir]

I've got cars used on a daily basis with both new cones and S-Racer springs.

Both are nice for different reasons.

 

The coils give a fantastic ride, almost at hydro levels of comfort but at the price of handling and load carrying ability.
You can't put heavy things or cram passengers in the back as the car sits down too much and rubs.
On a long journey I'll take the coil car as it is a very relaxing drive.

 

Bashing cross country fast I'll take the car with the new cones.

 

As soon as I finish my Hydro car I'll think of a way to show the difference sceintifically.

 

Facts not opinions chaps.
Anyone wanting to try the two back to back are welcome to.