24 replies to this topic

[Tamworthbay]

It was reported that the ANC attacked their own, necklacing them (true or not i cant prove) who were seen as sellouts.
He was a member of the comunist party.
 
Even in his own book wrote "The ANC's military wing had bomb-making lessons from the IRA" and "training from the East German Stasi, which it used to carry out brutal interrogations of suspected "spies" at secret prison camps".
 
True Tam, i would kill anyone harming my family n friends, and can understand that those opressed will and deserve to fight back, extremists ways or views is what i dissagre with, be it ANC,BNP EDL...my mates mum
 
My point aint nothing to do with race, its about terroism, and that those too young to remember them dark days know both sides of a man they chose or are taught to see as a "True hero" or "Greatest man on Earth"
 
EDIT: and im not comparing the situation of Blacks against Cathloics...im saying the two are/were (ANC and IRA) cut of the same cloth, as terrosists.

I guess it depends on your definition of terrorism. To me anyone fighting a morally corrupt inhuman system is not a terrorist. The brave poles in the Warsaw uprising were not terrorists to me, the amazing men who killed heydrich were not terrorists, the Jews who fought back at sobibor were not terrorists, they were freedom fighters. The same with Mandela. A terrorist is someone who attempts to force his or her politics on a majority by means of violence or against a clear moral code. Your mates Mum I am unsure of, more info needed (although I do now have a mental image of her in Mexican bandit style with bullet belts and grenades and a rifle).

[Ipod]

 

It was reported that the ANC attacked their own, necklacing them (true or not i cant prove) who were seen as sellouts.
He was a member of the comunist party.
 
Even in his own book wrote "The ANC's military wing had bomb-making lessons from the IRA" and "training from the East German Stasi, which it used to carry out brutal interrogations of suspected "spies" at secret prison camps".
 
True Tam, i would kill anyone harming my family n friends, and can understand that those opressed will and deserve to fight back, extremists ways or views is what i dissagre with, be it ANC,BNP EDL...my mates mum
 
My point aint nothing to do with race, its about terroism, and that those too young to remember them dark days know both sides of a man they chose or are taught to see as a "True hero" or "Greatest man on Earth"
 
EDIT: and im not comparing the situation of Blacks against Cathloics...im saying the two are/were (ANC and IRA) cut of the same cloth, as terrosists.

I guess it depends on your definition of terrorism. To me anyone fighting a morally corrupt inhuman system is not a terrorist. The brave poles in the Warsaw uprising were not terrorists to me, the amazing men who killed heydrich were not terrorists, the Jews who fought back at sobibor were not terrorists, they were freedom fighters. The same with Mandela. A terrorist is someone who attempts to force his or her politics on a majority by means of violence or against a clear moral code. Your mates Mum I am unsure of, more info needed (although I do now have a mental image of her in Mexican bandit style with bullet belts and grenades and a rifle).

 

 

youv met her then, she's still got the cuban cigar ;)

 

I cant comment on the poles and warsaw uprising, as i dont know nothing (will ask and learn from my polish mates)

 

I think we do have different views on the subject of terroism and NM, and could both discuss them for ages, but im gonna bail out now, but dont think i dismiss your views, i like to hear others opinions (somtimes i learn new things)

so gonna go for a smoke n chill n learn more about HILO's

 

Good to discuss withya Tam, always a pleasure mate.

Edited by Ipod, 06 December 2013 - 08:56 PM.

[Tamworthbay]

It was reported that the ANC attacked their own, necklacing them (true or not i cant prove) who were seen as sellouts.
He was a member of the comunist party.
 
Even in his own book wrote "The ANC's military wing had bomb-making lessons from the IRA" and "training from the East German Stasi, which it used to carry out brutal interrogations of suspected "spies" at secret prison camps".
 
True Tam, i would kill anyone harming my family n friends, and can understand that those opressed will and deserve to fight back, extremists ways or views is what i dissagre with, be it ANC,BNP EDL...my mates mum
 
My point aint nothing to do with race, its about terroism, and that those too young to remember them dark days know both sides of a man they chose or are taught to see as a "True hero" or "Greatest man on Earth"
 
EDIT: and im not comparing the situation of Blacks against Cathloics...im saying the two are/were (ANC and IRA) cut of the same cloth, as terrosists.

I guess it depends on your definition of terrorism. To me anyone fighting a morally corrupt inhuman system is not a terrorist. The brave poles in the Warsaw uprising were not terrorists to me, the amazing men who killed heydrich were not terrorists, the Jews who fought back at sobibor were not terrorists, they were freedom fighters. The same with Mandela. A terrorist is someone who attempts to force his or her politics on a majority by means of violence or against a clear moral code. Your mates Mum I am unsure of, more info needed (although I do now have a mental image of her in Mexican bandit style with bullet belts and grenades and a rifle).

 
youv met her then, she's still got the cuban cigar ;)
 
I cant comment on the poles and warsaw uprising, as i dont know nothing (will ask and learn from my polish mates)
 
I think we do have different views on the subject of terroism and NM, and could both discuss them for ages, but im gonna bail out now, but dont think i dismiss your views, i like to hear others opinions (somtimes i learn new things)
so gonna go for a smoke n chill n learn more about HILO's
 
Good to discuss withya Tam, always a pleasure mate.

And you mate, got a brilliant book on the Warsaw uprising if you are interested. Yours for the postage.

[mab01uk]

Mandela vs. Mugabe: A Contrast in African Heroes

"Mugabe and Mandela both were heroes when they led their respective countries out of colonial rule. But one followed a path of forgiveness and peaceful, setting his country on a stable path for generations to come. The other pursued spiteful agendas, as the lust for power overcame him. Millions of Zimbabweans, now bear the scars......."

http://www.huffingto..._b_3127769.html

 

 

[Black.Ghost]

Tamworthbay, I am genuinely sorry you feel that way. In hindsight, it was a rash comment with no substance to it and I can easily understand how it would provoke such a reaction.
 
However I stand by my comments that I do not believe is the amazing hero that much of the Western world sees him as. There can be absolutely no doubt that he had a huge contribution to help bring SA out of the dark ages, However, that can be used to exonerate him of past crimes in my eyes. 
 
While in the ANC, he ordered and allowed the deaths of tens of innocents. None of us can even begin to understand what being in SA during Apartheid was like, and nor would I want to. For that reason, I can understand sabotage and targeting those in power. But ordering or even allowing the deaths of any innocent people is crossing the line. 
 
It should also be remembered that initially, the ANC were not wanting equality. They were wanting Black Rule, a situation that could easily have lead to the same thing happening but the other way around making them no better than the system they were fighting against.
 
Even when he was in power, for someone so against oppression, he maintained some very questionable political allegiances. His spending on military hardware (why the hell did they need 28 aircraft at around $65 million a piece) when his country was still suffering from the aftermath of Apartheid. The money could have been spent in a much better way. 
 
So despite the good work he did, for me crossing the line into murder is unacceptable and no better than the enemy he was fighting. This is the reason the British Army has Rules of Engagement wherever they go on operations - you have to be held to a higher standard than the enemy you are fighting when on any kind of mission where the morality of it can be called into question.
 
Ipod has already highlighted similar points to those I have previously made on FB relating to Gerry Adams for example. He was also a murdering   with revelations very recently about a murder he ordered, and look at him now. Is he someone that should also be classed as a hero? I think not. Don't get me wrong, The Troubles and Apartheid are very different beasts but the principles for me are the same.
 
There is absolutely no doubt that he has probably had more influence on history and certainly SA than any other single man or woman in history and I would never argue this. You cannot look at who he became without looking at what he was for me and he crossed a line from which he could never recover. I hope the world never sees anything even 1/10th abhorrent as Apartheid, along with the Holocaust one of the most saddening events in human history. Ethnic cleansing of any type and by any people is horrific. 
 
The tragic thing is that SA and the African continent in general suffers hugely from racism, corruption and conflict and there just doesn't appear to be a workable solution in sight. 

[Tamworthbay]

Whilst I disagree with a lot of what you say for reasons mentioned above, especially the comparison to NI, it does show that the key difference here is that we are free to discuss and disagree. That option was available to the blacks in SA. The idea of 'rules of engagement' is a paper exercise to placate people who have no concept of war. War crimes exist in every war, there are too many to list but the sad episode of the marine this week is just one.,it's just not reported. The idea that conventional war takes place in a gentlemanly way is the stuff of Hollywood movies but not based in reality, as is the idea that we are the good guys and the bad guys are the enemy, it's just the victors decide the 'justice' at the end. We are a million times better than the yanks but still support countries guilty of war crimes and oppression.

I think Orwell's reflections on war in 1984 sum it up perfectly - there always has to be someone to be against and governments can swap and change from one day to the next. I have to say I found the ex Tories sycophantic ramblings over Mandela sickening. They promoted relations and trade with SA knowing they were supporting a brutal regime. If that is their choice, fair enough. It is the way they are now making out they were doing all they could is unbeleivable.

Sadly I doubt anyone could disagree with the last statement. And that is the true tradegy that continues to this day. But SA is a far better place for having Mandela. To my mind that is why Africa (and the world) need more Mandelas. Unfortunately a lot of African leaders seem more like the Lenny Henry character.

[firstforward]

Tamworthbay, I am genuinely sorry you feel that way. In hindsight, it was a rash comment with no substance to it and I can easily understand how it would provoke such a reaction.
 
However I stand by my comments that I do not believe is the amazing hero that much of the Western world sees him as. There can be absolutely no doubt that he had a huge contribution to help bring SA out of the dark ages, However, that can be used to exonerate him of past crimes in my eyes. 
 
While in the ANC, he ordered and allowed the deaths of tens of innocents. None of us can even begin to understand what being in SA during Apartheid was like, and nor would I want to. For that reason, I can understand sabotage and targeting those in power. But ordering or even allowing the deaths of any innocent people is crossing the line. 
 
It should also be remembered that initially, the ANC were not wanting equality. They were wanting Black Rule, a situation that could easily have lead to the same thing happening but the other way around making them no better than the system they were fighting against.
 
Even when he was in power, for someone so against oppression, he maintained some very questionable political allegiances. His spending on military hardware (why the hell did they need 28 aircraft at around $65 million a piece) when his country was still suffering from the aftermath of Apartheid. The money could have been spent in a much better way. 
 
So despite the good work he did, for me crossing the line into murder is unacceptable and no better than the enemy he was fighting. This is the reason the British Army has Rules of Engagement wherever they go on operations - you have to be held to a higher standard than the enemy you are fighting when on any kind of mission where the morality of it can be called into question.
 
Ipod has already highlighted similar points to those I have previously made on FB relating to Gerry Adams for example. He was also a murdering   with revelations very recently about a murder he ordered, and look at him now. Is he someone that should also be classed as a hero? I think not. Don't get me wrong, The Troubles and Apartheid are very different beasts but the principles for me are the same.
 
There is absolutely no doubt that he has probably had more influence on history and certainly SA than any other single man or woman in history and I would never argue this. You cannot look at who he became without looking at what he was for me and he crossed a line from which he could never recover. I hope the world never sees anything even 1/10th abhorrent as Apartheid, along with the Holocaust one of the most saddening events in human history. Ethnic cleansing of any type and by any people is horrific. 
 
The tragic thing is that SA and the African continent in general suffers hugely from racism, corruption and conflict and there just doesn't appear to be a workable solution in sight. 

 

Black Ghost I think you explained that very well and in the main I agree with your position. Your last line about racism is very true, racism is SA against whites supported and encouraged by a corrupt government at that, but the world is turning a blind eye to it all including in Zimbabwe.I do not recall any politician from SA condemning how whites are treated, I visited SA earlier this year on business and I have travelled the world some, it is the ONLY country I have ever visited whereby if you pull up at traffic lights you have people begging for food or money and those people are exclusively whites no blacks/asians begging anywhere just whites. Whites are not allowed government jobs and all utility companies are only employing blacks. In SA at the moment it is blacks first, asian/indians second, any other nationality next with whites last. This all took place whilst Mandela was alive, so make what you will with that.

What really gets my goat are those who do not really have an idea what happened there, they were not there and just believed all the propaganda that was presented to them, apartheid was wrong, but it only evolved into apartheid because of blacks wanting to remove whites, nothing about sharing power and today it’s not a shared country. The whites are only allowed to be present there whilst their money is needed. Is everybody aware that there is a land grab policy in SA, it has not been implemented yet but it is on the back burner waiting for the right moment to implement it.

 

So for those of you that believe that Mandela made a wonderful SA, a fair and just SA, a SA with forgiveness and peace for all to flourish……you are very misinformed and believe all the hype and propaganda.

[Tamworthbay]

Strange, when you see the congress it has many white faces, as do the security forces, as do the officials at the events shown . My ex boss owns a 'hunting lodge' over there and she repeatedly told of the blacks begging at the roadside, no mention of whites doing this from her. So perhaps different parts of the country have different problems.

As for the land 'grab' where did that land come from a few generations before? not to mention the land grabs of the 70s and 80s by the whites and the ghettoisation of the black townships. How many whites owned the land before the invasion in Voctorian times? Personally I don't agree with any land grabs and don't know enough to know the accuracy of what you say, but when you comment on the other countries this happens in I would have to point out that yet again the media shows a very biased picture of this. mugabe's disgraceful behaviour is widely reported but repeated Israeli abuses in Palestine are very very rarely mentioned (if you are interested they approved another 2000 homes on Palestinian land last week but the BBC didn't think it worth a mention). SA isn't perfect by any stretch but the suggestion that anti apartheid beliefs were based on 'propaganda' are very sad indeed. The blacks that were murdered protesting against white land grabs were not terrorists they were people like us. If someone tried to steal my home and kill my children I would resist with every means available to me, I doubt many people would be any different.

[AVV IT]

Political views/opinions of his life aside, I really don't consider Mandela's death to be particularly sad news, far from it in fact. Whilst that may sound a little cold, we're not actually talking about a young man filled with future potential, that was stuck down in his prime here. We are talking about a former world leader, who achieved so much, but ended his days as a weak, and frail victim of advanced age, and someone who had to suffer the pain and indignity of failing health for many years. I can only imagine that the end was probably a welcome relief for both him and all involved.

 

So far from being a state of mourning, surely this should be seen as an opportunity to celebrate and reflect upon his life's achievements, or to dance on his grave, if that's how you happen to have felt about the guy? 

[Black.Ghost]

Whilst I disagree with a lot of what you say for reasons mentioned above, especially the comparison to NI, it does show that the key difference here is that we are free to discuss and disagree. That option was available to the blacks in SA. The idea of 'rules of engagement' is a paper exercise to placate people who have no concept of war. War crimes exist in every war, there are too many to list but the sad episode of the marine this week is just one.,it's just not reported. The idea that conventional war takes place in a gentlemanly way is the stuff of Hollywood movies but not based in reality, as is the idea that we are the good guys and the bad guys are the enemy, it's just the victors decide the 'justice' at the end. We are a million times better than the yanks but still support countries guilty of war crimes and oppression.

I think Orwell's reflections on war in 1984 sum it up perfectly - there always has to be someone to be against and governments can swap and change from one day to the next. I have to say I found the ex Tories sycophantic ramblings over Mandela sickening. They promoted relations and trade with SA knowing they were supporting a brutal regime. If that is their choice, fair enough. It is the way they are now making out they were doing all they could is unbeleivable.

Sadly I doubt anyone could disagree with the last statement. And that is the true tradegy that continues to this day. But SA is a far better place for having Mandela. To my mind that is why Africa (and the world) need more Mandelas. Unfortunately a lot of African leaders seem more like the Lenny Henry character.

Unfortunately I would say that conventional war is a thing of the past. The types of military campaigns going forward will be counter insurgency with different rules for each side. The incident you cite in regards to the Marine, this is a topic for an entirely different discussion but in my mind he should not have been sent down for murder. If however he had murdered an unarmed civilian who he was not sure had been shooting at him etc, it would have been a different matter. For this we are accountable and therefore in modern conflict we do have accountability.

 

I agree about the good guys and the bad guys comments - nothing is quite so black and white.

 

He will continue to be a controversial figure for the rest of time and his contributions, good and bad, will still be discussed long after the likes of you and I are gone. 

 

Firstforward, I agree with your comments on racism in SA/Zim. My mums husband is from Zim (he is white) and he has told me in the past how bad the situation is. For what its worth, I don't particularly like him though!