78 replies to this topic

[sledgehammer]

If we introduce a new section, it should be "all other cars" for chat about any other car, including bmw minis and whatever else.

 

liking that idea

[CityEPete]

In the same way there are vocal MINI supporters even if a thread is buried in off topic the same Bini haters hunt them out to let us all know they dont like them, ok we get it you dont like them!

I prefer my Morris Minor anyway, lol

[Tamworthbay]

In the same way there are vocal MINI supporters even if a thread is buried in off topic the same Bini haters hunt them out to let us all know they dont like them, ok we get it you dont like them!
I prefer my Morris Minor anyway, lol

TMF is MINI tolerant, any abuse or flaming then use the report button. Just remember a different opinion isn't flaming and everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as it remains polite.

[Tanya]

 

A forum isn't purely about fixing cars, it's about the community aspect too. Like it or lump it, Mini and MINI are associated - fact.
I too want this to be a Mini forum, and for me to represent Mini holistically, that would include reflecting Mini's relationship with MINI.
I suspect that I'm considered one of the 'very vocal supporters of MINI'. I do find it a little frustrating that those who voice an opinion that is different to the admin team appear to be considered a nuisance by a few people. We should all have a right to express our opinions in a respectful way, and should not feel chastised for doing so. I guess some of the frustration might be that I know my opinions will make no difference in the way that TMF is governed but I still continue to make them. I guess for me, that's about free speech.

the problem is that some people can't accept other opinions may be different. I had a Pm conversation with one of the vocal MINI brigade who could not accept the majority view and when I pointed out that the team on here were volunteers, I was told that volunteers should expect abuse as its part of what you volunteer for. Hardly community minded in my opinion.

And as for it being seen as a nuisance 'by a few', the overwhelming majority of members are against it being a MINI forum as well and repeatedly tell us so, so why can't the MINI Minority accept that? After all there are plenty of MINI forums they can use if they so choose.

This has been gone over many times and every time the senior admin on here state that it is a CLASSIC forum. Some people seem to think that if they shout enough and go on and on and on and on and on and on and on that they will change people's minds. Quite the opposite happens and people just get sick of hearing it.

 

 

Clive, I expect that conversation via PM was with me.  This is what I said in October 2013 in response to you saying that you were a volunteer and you felt new MINI supporters were getting very aggressive, boarding on abusive at that time:

 

'I was under the assumption that all those you were involved in the management of TMF in one way or another were volunteers.  As a long standing volunteer I can share your frustrations but without sounding harsh (but I guess this does), it goes with the territory   However, having experience of being a volunteer and regularly dealing with conflict and difficult situations, I can and do empathise.'

 

As stated there, I'm a long standing volunteer and that is my experience and the experience of many of my fellow long term voluntary workers.  I guess the public assumption is that volunteer equals fun, which it can sometimes, but my years of experience of working directly with people tells me that at times it equal grief and hard work.  If you're dealing with people on the front line, it's likely to happen sooner or later.   It would be lovely if the world was different. but it's not.  

 

I should always be able to express my opinions respectfully and will do when threads like this come up.  I do not have a habit regularly raising the Mini/MINI debate, I just respond to comments that I disagree with in threads and liking the comments that I do agree with.  I feel to do not so would be to limit my right to free speech.  If I'm considered a nuisance for doing so, then so be it.  

 

No one disputes this is a classic forum, what the debate is about how MINI does/doesn't fit in with it.  Personally I do not see MINI as 'any other car' in relation to Mini, it is much more significant than that.  I don't want a separate MINI section, before anyone leaps to that assumption!   As I've already said, I would just like to see the association between Mini and MINI recognised within this forum.   And just because it won't happen, that doesn't take away my right to express my views!  

 

Oh, and I'm not a MINI supporter per se (although I don't have a problem with them), I very much support the association between Mini and MINI - that's different.

[Tamworthbay]

A forum isn't purely about fixing cars, it's about the community aspect too. Like it or lump it, Mini and MINI are associated - fact.
I too want this to be a Mini forum, and for me to represent Mini holistically, that would include reflecting Mini's relationship with MINI.
I suspect that I'm considered one of the 'very vocal supporters of MINI'. I do find it a little frustrating that those who voice an opinion that is different to the admin team appear to be considered a nuisance by a few people. We should all have a right to express our opinions in a respectful way, and should not feel chastised for doing so. I guess some of the frustration might be that I know my opinions will make no difference in the way that TMF is governed but I still continue to make them. I guess for me, that's about free speech.

the problem is that some people can't accept other opinions may be different. I had a Pm conversation with one of the vocal MINI brigade who could not accept the majority view and when I pointed out that the team on here were volunteers, I was told that volunteers should expect abuse as its part of what you volunteer for. Hardly community minded in my opinion.
And as for it being seen as a nuisance 'by a few', the overwhelming majority of members are against it being a MINI forum as well and repeatedly tell us so, so why can't the MINI Minority accept that? After all there are plenty of MINI forums they can use if they so choose.
This has been gone over many times and every time the senior admin on here state that it is a CLASSIC forum. Some people seem to think that if they shout enough and go on and on and on and on and on and on and on that they will change people's minds. Quite the opposite happens and people just get sick of hearing it.

 
Clive, I expect that conversation via PM was with me.  This is what I said in October 2013 in response to you saying that you were a volunteer and you felt new MINI supporters were getting very aggressive, boarding on abusive at that time:
 
'I was under the assumption that all those you were involved in the management of TMF in one way or another were volunteers.  As a long standing volunteer I can share your frustrations but without sounding harsh (but I guess this does), it goes with the territory   However, having experience of being a volunteer and regularly dealing with conflict and difficult situations, I can and do empathise.'
 
As stated there, I'm a long standing volunteer and that is my experience and the experience of many of my fellow long term voluntary workers.  I guess the public assumption is that volunteer equals fun, which it can sometimes, but my years of experience of working directly with people tells me that at times it equal grief and hard work.  If you're dealing with people on the front line, it's likely to happen sooner or later.   It would be lovely if the world was different. but it's not.  
 
I should always be able to express my opinions respectfully and will do when threads like this come up.  I do not have a habit regularly raising the Mini/MINI debate, I just respond to comments that I disagree with in threads and liking the comments that I do agree with.  I feel to do not so would be to limit my right to free speech.  If I'm considered a nuisance for doing so, then so be it.  
 
No one disputes this is a classic forum, what the debate is about how MINI does/doesn't fit in with it.  Personally I do not see MINI as 'any other car' in relation to Mini, it is much more significant than that.  I don't want a separate MINI section, before anyone leaps to that assumption!   As I've already said, I would just like to see the association between Mini and MINI recognised within this forum.   And just because it won't happen, that doesn't take away my right to express my views!  
 
Oh, and I'm not a MINI supporter per se (although I don't have a problem with them), I very much support the association between Mini and MINI - that's different.

it was you Tanya, and I think taking one section out of PM is a little naughty as the whole conversation would show the context to be more than a little different to the paragraph you have quoted. It is interesting however that when I quoted from our conversation a while back (without naming anyone I would like to point out) you were up in arms about it, but now see no issue in using a snippet out of context. Double standards?

But I do not wish to get involved in one of your incredibly long discussions again, especially as it takes away from the issue at hand. You are welcome to your opinion, as are those who disagree, but none of it is relevant to the issue at hand. You have voiced your opinion on many occasions and I doubt it will change, but then nor will that of the majority of members on here so it all becomes a pointless exercise.

The issue is the moving of a topic. Matt has explained his reasons for doing so, it fits with TMF a policy as it always has been. Not sure really why this is still going three pages on.

[Carlos W]

Can we get things into perspective here.

 

BMW MINI threads belong in General Chat, and we cannot have some in mini chat and some in general chat, it just causes confusion.

 

It's not like the thread has been deleted, it's still there, just for admin purposes it's been moved to the correct section with all the other BMW MINI threads.

[Carlos W]

The comments like "we wouldn't have a citroen thread or transit van thread in general chat so why a mini one

 

Where are these comments?

 

Ben was asking for advice on his Picasso the other week. We have an any other projects section. 

[Tanya]

it was you Tanya, and I think taking one section out of PM is a little naughty as the whole conversation would show the context to be more than a little different to the paragraph you have quoted. It is interesting however that when I quoted from our conversation a while back (without naming anyone I would like to point out) you were up in arms about it, but now see no issue in using a snippet out of context. Double standards?

But I do not wish to get involved in one of your incredibly long discussions again, especially as it takes away from the issue at hand. You are welcome to your opinion, as are those who disagree, but none of it is relevant to the issue at hand. You have voiced your opinion on many occasions and I doubt it will change, but then nor will that of the majority of members on here so it all becomes a pointless exercise.

The issue is the moving of a topic. Matt has explained his reasons for doing so, it fits with TMF a policy as it always has been. Not sure really why this is still going three pages on.

 

 

I have not quoted you out of context.  I did not object to you quoting part of the PM, my objection was that it was not in context.  I have quoted myself and in context about what you said.  Feel free to publish that whole conversation, I've nothing to hide, but understandably, I object to being quoted out of context.  Please do not do it again. Quote me by all means, but in context.

 

To be accused of double standards in this case is inaccurate and unfair, but hey, who said life was fair!  You are a keen 'liker' of comments that support your opinions and points of view, but object when I and other members that you are not keen on like comments that we agree with.  I guess it's one rule for one and one for another, and I do accept that happens on TMF on occasions.  

 

It's fine not to answer my points, but to respond with this is a little disappointing, but I'm used to that too.

[minidizzy]

I have to express a great deal of sympathy with the OP. His point is well made but not as well listened to by some. With respect, the move of the thread is perhaps a little heavy handed if it was done without first checking its history. Four years plus is a very long time and Mini Chat is where people would by now expect to find this particular thread. The OP does deserve a huge amount of respect for the amazing contribution he makes to the forum on items of Mini history and I can understand his frustration.

It is very significant that many who have a passion for the Mini and its history but cannot feasibly use one as a daily drive have a MINI as the obvious alternative. No other car can claim the heritage.

I have an R56 Cooper S. I am not particularly interested in looking at MINI forums. It is a very odd  suggestion that is too frequently made. My interest is in classic Minis and I am occasionally interested in the MINI in the context of the Mini and of John Cooper, Paddy Hopkirk, Rauno Aaltonen, etc. I recognise and appreciate the tolerance given to the MINI on this forum and I do not understand why this tolerance is sometimes challenged.

I think the heritage of the MINI does deserve some occasional discussion in Mini Chat. It is not as if it is overwhelming the section. General Chat, as the title suggests, is too general.

I dislike the use of the name BMW MINI. You don’t talk about a Tata Jaguar. BMW had never made a front wheel drive car before (apart from the MPi). The MINI was developed by Rover and is manufactured where the first Mini was made in Cowley. BMW now do much to support the Classic Mini heritage.

I happen to think a MINI is more of a Mini than the Honda/Vauxhall engined hybrids that are given their own space on this forum but that is just my opinion.

[Tamworthbay]

it was you Tanya, and I think taking one section out of PM is a little naughty as the whole conversation would show the context to be more than a little different to the paragraph you have quoted. It is interesting however that when I quoted from our conversation a while back (without naming anyone I would like to point out) you were up in arms about it, but now see no issue in using a snippet out of context. Double standards?
But I do not wish to get involved in one of your incredibly long discussions again, especially as it takes away from the issue at hand. You are welcome to your opinion, as are those who disagree, but none of it is relevant to the issue at hand. You have voiced your opinion on many occasions and I doubt it will change, but then nor will that of the majority of members on here so it all becomes a pointless exercise.
The issue is the moving of a topic. Matt has explained his reasons for doing so, it fits with TMF a policy as it always has been. Not sure really why this is still going three pages on.

 
I have not quoted you out of context.  I did not object to you quoting part of the PM, my objection was that it was not in context.  I have quoted myself and in context about what you said.  Feel free to publish that whole conversation, I've nothing to hide, but understandably, I object to being quoted out of context.  Please do not do it again. Quote me by all means, but in context.
 
To be accused of double standards in this case is inaccurate and unfair, but hey, who said life was fair!  You are a keen 'liker' of comments that support your opinions and points of view, but object when I and other members that you are not keen on like comments that we agree with.  I guess it's one rule for one and one for another, and I do accept that happens on TMF on occasions.  
 
It's fine not to answer my points, but to respond with this is a little disappointing, but I'm used to that too.

as always, you attempt to drag people into a long drawn out argument and act as the victim when it fact I was you who was rude and attempted to bully your opinion onto me. Then you were rude when I refused to agree to with. I won't post the entire conversation as it would take up several pages. But feel free to if you want to. And yes you did object to the quote, you complained about it even though I had the decency not to state who the quote was from. You complain about being quotes out of context, despite the fact that 1, you were not quoted as I did not name you, and 2, you are happy to quote yourself out of context for your benefit. If that is not double standards I do not know what is. And where did I say that you were not entitled to like? I merely pointed out that it was the same few members who liked most of the MINI content. I am unsure how you can claim that that is either untrue or amounts to saying you shouldn't do it - it is a simple, but accurate, observation. Nothing more, nothing less.

You claim to want a community yet revel in attempting to drag people I to arguments which only damge the very thing you claim to admire, you go behind people's back and twist events.

I will give you no further pleasure in your desire for an argument. I have made the points that need to be made.

[The Matt]

I happen to think a MINI is more of a Mini than the Honda/Vauxhall engined hybrids that are given their own space on this forum but that is just my opinion.[/font]

I'm amazed that anyone could think that. A car that is 90% as per the Classic Mini, compared to a car that shares no common parts with the Classic, not the same size, has similar styling, but retained the name?

My engine conversion retained, completely, the feel of a Mini. How Anyone can deem a MINI to be more like a Mini, than a Mini with a different engine is beyond me!

As for "Tata Jaguar", well, no, you'd call it a Jaguar XK, Or a Jaguar F Type...or whatever else. It's pretty normal to list a car by make and model, isn't it?

That's what a MINI is, isn't it? A BMW MINI.

[minidizzy]

No

[Tanya]

 

 

it was you Tanya, and I think taking one section out of PM is a little naughty as the whole conversation would show the context to be more than a little different to the paragraph you have quoted. It is interesting however that when I quoted from our conversation a while back (without naming anyone I would like to point out) you were up in arms about it, but now see no issue in using a snippet out of context. Double standards?
But I do not wish to get involved in one of your incredibly long discussions again, especially as it takes away from the issue at hand. You are welcome to your opinion, as are those who disagree, but none of it is relevant to the issue at hand. You have voiced your opinion on many occasions and I doubt it will change, but then nor will that of the majority of members on here so it all becomes a pointless exercise.
The issue is the moving of a topic. Matt has explained his reasons for doing so, it fits with TMF a policy as it always has been. Not sure really why this is still going three pages on.

 
I have not quoted you out of context.  I did not object to you quoting part of the PM, my objection was that it was not in context.  I have quoted myself and in context about what you said.  Feel free to publish that whole conversation, I've nothing to hide, but understandably, I object to being quoted out of context.  Please do not do it again. Quote me by all means, but in context.
 
To be accused of double standards in this case is inaccurate and unfair, but hey, who said life was fair!  You are a keen 'liker' of comments that support your opinions and points of view, but object when I and other members that you are not keen on like comments that we agree with.  I guess it's one rule for one and one for another, and I do accept that happens on TMF on occasions.  
 
It's fine not to answer my points, but to respond with this is a little disappointing, but I'm used to that too.

as always, you attempt to drag people into a long drawn out argument and act as the victim when it fact I was you who was rude and attempted to bully your opinion onto me. Then you were rude when I refused to agree to with. I won't post the entire conversation as it would take up several pages. But feel free to if you want to. And yes you did object to the quote, you complained about it even though I had the decency not to state who the quote was from. You complain about being quotes out of context, despite the fact that 1, you were not quoted as I did not name you, and 2, you are happy to quote yourself out of context for your benefit. If that is not double standards I do not know what is. And where did I say that you were not entitled to like? I merely pointed out that it was the same few members who liked most of the MINI content. I am unsure how you can claim that that is either untrue or amounts to saying you shouldn't do it - it is a simple, but accurate, observation. Nothing more, nothing less.

You claim to want a community yet revel in attempting to drag people I to arguments which only damge the very thing you claim to admire, you go behind people's back and twist events.

I will give you no further pleasure in your desire for an argument. I have made the points that need to be made.

 

 

And equally, I do not feel the need to add to what I have already said on the subject.   However, I do not feel like a 'victim' on here, frustrated at times, but not a victim.  I do feel that I can debate constructively and can put my points clearly and succinctly, so long as the thread isn't locked or removed.  

 

I disagree with all of your last post, particularly that I have double standards.  However, for everyone else's sake, it might be better to agree to disagree.  I also think it is best if you don't quote me at all from that conversation, even if it is anonymously (I still know it's me - but maybe that's what you want), then I won't need to quote to show the context, which you miss out.  I would publish the whole conversation, but I'm not sure that's in the best interests of the TMF community.   I get on very well with the vast majority of TMF members and the Mini community and do make a positive contribution, but as in life, there will always be the one or two.    

Edited by Tanya, 08 November 2014 - 09:31 PM.

[HarrysMini]

 

I happen to think a MINI is more of a Mini than the Honda/Vauxhall engined hybrids that are given their own space on this forum but that is just my opinion.[/font]

As for "Tata Jaguar", well, no, you'd call it a Jaguar XK, Or a Jaguar F Type...or whatever else. It's pretty normal to list a car by make and model, isn't it?

That's what a MINI is, isn't it? A BMW MINI.

 

No, it is MINI Cooper, Or MINI One. As you say, make and model. MINI is the brand, as is Jaguar etc. BMW simply own the marque.

Edited by HarrysMini, 08 November 2014 - 09:32 PM.

[The Matt]

A BMW MINI Cooper?