100 replies to this topic

[spiguy]

 

Interesting. Maybe I should have pointed out that I live in Scotland. Up here, most people do actually drive to the speed limits on motorways / dual carriageways, in other words on my daily commute on the M8, there are three lanes. Inside lane doing around 60, middle lane 65-70, outer lane maybe 80, but usually just overtaking.  We holiday in England, so I have experience of driving down there (A1 / M1, M6 etc) and I would say that you would struggle to do less than the speed limit there - though I find the A1 / M1 to be nuts and not very safe at all. Everyone foot down, lots of lane changing, lots of last minute braking.
 
I guess I just find the mini more comfortable and enjoyable when cruising a little slower. My normal daily (old 306 td) I drive at the limit or slightly above everywhere. 
 
Agreed that too slow is dangerous, but I would dispute that if I was to head out onto the motorway in my mini and blast up it at 85mph - thus hassling the majority of drivers in the fast lane to get out my way and change lane - that this would be safer than sitting in the inside lane doing the same speed as everyone else and not requiring to change lane.

There is one speed limit for cars on the motorway. The speed limit is 70mph in every lane. You're supposed to stick to the inside lane and use the other lanes for overtaking slower vehicles.

People sitting at 60 in the inside lane for no genuine reason causes a potential danger to other road users having to pull out to over take, where they shouldn't have to

 

 

It is not a mandatory 70 mph, it is the *limit* - ie you are not allowed to go *above* that. And if you actually read my post that you quoted, you would notice that I was making the point that on the road I am talking about which I drive on ( due to the levels of the traffic ) the inside lane travels at 60mph, which is the lane I choose to drive in - at the same speed as everyone else in that lane.

 

Therefore I am not holding anybody up or causing a potential danger,  and the point I was making was in response to another comment suggesting that driving at 85mph was safer. I made the point (again I am just paraphrasing my post that YOU QUOTED) that it cannot be safer for me to drive at 85mph on this road, therefore up everyone's ar5e hassling them to move out of my way, rather than sit at a steady 60 in the inside lane, where everyone else is doing 60.

 

Your comment is actually ridiculous if you re-read it. On the one hand you state that the limit is 70mph - taking issue with the fact that I would be doing 60 in the inside lane (I should be doing 70). Then you point out that the correct way to drive on the motorway is to stick to the inside lane unless overtaking slower vehicles. So do you then break this 'one speed limit' of 70 in order to overtake the slower vehicles? Because according to you these slower vehicles should already be doing 70, otherwise they are causing a 'potential danger'.

 

I think you are demonstrating exactly the 'I have the right to go as fast as I want at all times' attitude that puts the responsibility for danger and risk in everyone else's court but yours. You are responsible for driving your car safely. That includes accomodating other road users.

 

Quick reminder, I was talking about doing 60 in the inside lane where everyone else is doing 60 already, on a road with a 70mph speed limit. We are not talking about somebody sitting at 30mph , or pulling out onto a dual carriageway at a totally inappropriate speed  - although as inconsiderate as those things would be, it is STILL down to each driver to be driving in such a way as to be able to deal with such situations without causing a pile up.

[AVV IT]

It's true that speed in itself doesn't kill, it's actually massive decelerative forces that tend do that, but speed is a major contributory factor to those forces. You cannot escape the fact regardless of how skilled you are as a driver, the faster you are traveling, the closer you will be to the accident by the time you have taken evasive action, the longer it will take you to slow down, the higher the impact speed will be, and the more serious/ potentially life threatening any resulting injuries are likely to be.

We can bang on all we like about how drivers should be better trained, pay more attention, concentrate more, but the reality is that they don't and that's not realistically going to change. Over time small improvements can be made in driving standards when teaching/examining new drivers, but there will never be a dramatic improvement in the general publics driving abilities. Even the most skilled drivers get it wrong sometimes though, even the most highly trained advanced drivers in the emergency services have accidents on occasions. Sadly these often have the most disastrous consequences, so we can't just ignore the risks associated with excessive speed, regardless of how advanced our driving abilities are.

So that leaves us with driving to speed limits, (or driving by numbers as Cooperman is so fond of calling it) it's a crude system and it's not ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world and it is a workable system that's enforceable on a mass scale. If we can't significantly reduce the risk of collision by improving driving skills, then we can at least slow everyone down a little, thereby reducing the chances of them colliding with anything in the first place, and reducing the risk of serious & fatal injury when they do hit something.

[superhuhn]

Athough I live in Germany with a lot of "speed freedom" on the roads I must confess I am a fan of (reasonable) speed limits, as the whole traffic runs much more fluid and relaxed in my opinion.

 

Apart from that I drive my Mini at around 110 km (70 miles) per hour on motorways and around 80 km (50 miles) on normal roads, this just feels more comfortable that driving at the maximum of allowed speed...

[Black.Ghost]

It's true that speed in itself doesn't kill, it's actually massive decelerative forces that tend do that, but speed is a major contributory factor to those forces. You cannot escape the fact regardless of how skilled you are as a driver, the faster you are traveling, the closer you will be to the accident by the time you have taken evasive action, the longer it will take you to slow down, the higher the impact speed will be, and the more serious/ potentially life threatening any resulting injuries are likely to be.

We can bang on all we like about how drivers should be better trained, pay more attention, concentrate more, but the reality is that they don't and that's not realistically going to change. Over time small improvements can be made in driving standards when teaching/examining new drivers, but there will never be a dramatic improvement in the general publics driving abilities. Even the most skilled drivers get it wrong sometimes though, even the most highly trained advanced drivers in the emergency services have accidents on occasions. Sadly these often have the most disastrous consequences, so we can't just ignore the risks associated with excessive speed, regardless of how advanced our driving abilities are.

So that leaves us with driving to speed limits, (or driving by numbers as Cooperman is so fond of calling it) it's a crude system and it's not ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world and it is a workable system that's enforceable on a mass scale. If we can't significantly reduce the risk of collision by improving driving skills, then we can at least slow everyone down a little, thereby reducing the chances of them colliding with anything in the first place, and reducing the risk of serious & fatal injury when they do hit something.

I completely agree with this. You have to work to the lowest common denominator, not what people think their skill level is. You cannot ask people when they take their test, do you enjoy driving, or is it a means to an end and set limits for different groups of people. Everyone has to have the same limit.

 

Cooperman, no one on here doubts your skill levels, and you probably are one of the better drivers here, certainly on the rallying side of things. However, I think this leaves you a responsibility to encourage safer and slower driving on public roads, rather than creating an image of ignoring speed limits because you are a better driver than most. There are many young and impressionable people using the internet, and if they see people like you giving this advice, regardless of their own skill levels, they may well adopt the same kind of policy. I am sorry to make it personal, but I do feel that you give the wrong image and are quite adamant that speed does not kill. As someone with rally experience, and therefore likely witnessed what happens when it does go wrong at high speed, you should be promoting slower and safer driving. Not everyone can be above average. I would rather people listen to the fireman showing pictures of cars when it goes wrong at speed rather than a former (or maybe current?) rally driver who suggests ignoring speed limits is ok because he is a good driver. 

 

Driving is a privilege, not a right. Everyone has a responsibility to drive at a sensible speed and have respect for other road users. We all need to get to work, we all need to get to the football and we all need to get home (or whatever else you travel on the roads for). Whether people agree that a speed limit is correct or not is also irrelevant - you don't make the laws and set the limits, you just have to abide by them. 

[Cooperman]

I certainly didn't intend to upset anyone with my personal comments and opinions.

However, the TRRL statement that only 4% of RTC's involve vehicles being driven in excess of the posted limit does rather knock back the 'speed kills' mantra as it means that 96% don't - a very big number.

As I think I tried to make clear, it is partly 'driving faster than you know how to' which causes the accidents, in addition to the main cause which is failure to drive in an appropriate manner with concentration and foresight. This may well mean driving at somewhat below the posted speed limit on many occasions, like last night when there was a fairly heavy mist.

There are so many limits set inappropriately now and this poor choice of limits is what tends to bring them into disrepute.

[nicklouse]

Some interesting reading.

Just thought I would put my tuppence hapeny in.

CooperMan. Pushing on on an open road is fine until you meet the idiot coming the other way.

One thing that was put into my head a long time ago was this.

What would you do if you met yourself driving the same way.

when I was a sales person I used to do a hell of a lot of miles and saw lots of interesting situations.

The craziest was a 7.5t going up the embankment on the A1 south of Caterick, the driver was not aware that the traffic had stopped infront of him.

My biggest pet hate. People who need to look at someone less than a foot away to talk to them.


Any Road my thoughts are with the families of the kids that died in that crash in Doncaster.

No idea what caused it but I bet someone was not aware of their environment.

[Dan]

I certainly didn't intend to upset anyone with my personal comments and opinions.
However, the TRRL statement that only 4% of RTC's involve vehicles being driven in excess of the posted limit does rather knock back the 'speed kills' mantra as it means that 96% don't - a very big number.
As I think I tried to make clear, it is partly 'driving faster than you know how to' which causes the accidents, in addition to the main cause which is failure to drive in an appropriate manner with concentration and foresight. This may well mean driving at somewhat below the posted speed limit on many occasions, like last night when there was a fairly heavy mist.
There are so many limits set inappropriately now and this poor choice of limits is what tends to bring them into disrepute.

Whilst this is true, it's also the case that this is a statistic relating to all reported or insurance claim RTCs across the board. The vast majority of which are not crashes on the open road but shunts at junctions and in traffic, in car parks etc. etc. In most of these cases it would be almost impossible for speed to be a factor. A far more useful statistic would be to know how many injury or fatality RTCs include speed as a factor.

[Cooperman]

I believe in the case of fatals the figure is c.12%. The RTC stats came from police reports, not insurance company figures.

 

I am most definitely not advocating driving faster than the road or conditions allow. I am saying that speed on its own is not the prime cause of accidents, so let's concentrate on what is the important factor.

 

The important factor is to drive within your personal limits at a speed which is appropriate for the conditions and the road and to concentrate, look well ahead, position your vehicle safely and to watch what you are doing. Just driving to the set limits will not make you safe, but driving appropriately, with good concentration and within your own personal limits will.

Edited by Cooperman, 16 November 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[Ethel]

I think Avvit's take is closest to the philosophy of the rule makers, and very difficult to argue with. My own approach was closer to Cooperman's, but you have to accept the faster you are going the more poo you're in when it does go wrong. There can't be many that planned on having RTA's but it's those prangs that the authorities have to tidy up after, so drive the regulations. 

 

Luke's observations from north of the border are interesting, I've noticed the same. Strange how attitudes are inversely related to the realities, apart from the many speed cameras, the opportunity to get your foot down  to good effect is much better on Scotland's relatively empty roads (away from the M8) yet drivers are much more level headed than around London where nobody is going anywhere fast.

 

To attempt to answer your question, it's one area where Minis do differ from one another, with varying levels of soundproofing and final drive ratios. Whenever I've done long journeys in one, any speed got tedious to hold for much over half an hour. A 5 minute belt of heavy right foot is inevitable  until enough guilt kicks in to have you driving by the fuel gauge once more.

[MiniCarJack]

With my mini currently sporting a wheezy little 850 engine, I find it difficult to get above 90kph on the motorways. It'll do 100 at a push, but I wouldn't want to sit at that speed for any longer than I have to! Normally on other roads I just stick to speed limits, or just a little above them, but I'm sure that when I have the 1275 engine I'll probably be pushing it a bit more. One great feature of a classic mini is the fact that it feels fast without having to go too fast - when I had my Toyota Celica, it was far too tempting to open it up on a straight bit of road. But now I just enjoy the mini's go-kart like feel, and great handling ability when driving around the twisty roads near my house; excessive speed isn't necessary.

[The Matt]

....but you have to accept the faster you are going the more poo you're in when it does go wrong....

 

^this^  exactly this.

 

But, back to the real question.  I don't like driving too fast in a Mini.  Juju and I went to Germany in 2009 in her MPI mini and the way that cruises is great.  You could sing along at 90mph where allowed, but we tended to stick more to 75-80 as it just feels more comfortable.

[Cooperman]

I have to admit there is some really stupid driving out there.

Recently I had to go from Cambridge to Knutsford. I travelled up on a Friday and it was raining with some high-ish winds, I cruised at around 70 when clear, but the volume of traffic on the A14, M1, M50 & M6 made that a rarity. The thing which was unsafe was how close many cars drove to the one in front at 50 or 60 in those conditions of heavy spray. This was all happening at well within the speed limit, but it was very unsafe and it seemed that some drivers resented the large gap I was leaving.

However, on my return, leaving at midnight on the Saturday, it was a clear and dry night with very little traffic. I set my cruise control to an indicated 98 mph which is 2300 rpm in top (not a Mini!). With Classic FM on the radio, so no stupid DJ babble to distract, it was a very easy journey. I just slowed for the speed cameras as I know where they are. It certainly felt much safer than the slow and dangerous journey up there. Fuel consumption was around 34 mpg at that cruise, so economical too.

Drivers are failing to drive to the conditions, especially in the wet and on main roads and that is a major cause of crashes.

Chavs in their Corsas, Saxos, Pugs, Polos and, dare I say it, lowered noisy Minis, driving at stupid speeds around urban areas are a different matter from main road journeys and need to be targeted by enforcement procedures.

[spiguy]

  The thing which was unsafe was how close many cars drove to the one in front at 50 or 60 in those conditions of heavy spray. This was all happening at well within the speed limit, but it was very unsafe and it seemed that some drivers resented the large gap I was leaving.

 

 

This is what I find too. Everybody right up the back of each other,  and no change to that behaviour even when in terrible weather. 

 

I apologise if this sounds like a pop at our friends south of the border, its not - just an observation - but year before last when we went to center parcs in Nottingham, it was teaming down with rain the whole way down. On the M1 / A1 in particular I was amazed at how angry people got at the gap I was leaving between me and the car in front. People were undertaking constantly to jump into it, and I got plenty growls and toots of the horn. All to no effect, as moments later we were all at a standstill for a minute or two then off again for no apparent reason - just down to all the traffic bunching up.

 

It's like people have no fear of what could happen.

[The Matt]

People were undertaking constantly to jump into it, and I got plenty growls and toots of the horn. 

 

 

But, were you sitting in the middle lane? 

[Cooperman]

 

People were undertaking constantly to jump into it, and I got plenty growls and toots of the horn. 

 

 

But, were you sitting in the middle lane? 

 

 

Most of that journey will have been on the 2-lane DC which is the A1. The inside lane is mainly filled with trucks doing their limited 56 mph.

 

In terms of overall road safety, maybe the biggest issue we need to address is the number of people texting, taking 'selfies' whilst driving, using non-hand-held mobile phones, fiddling with the various audio systems, changing CD's and re-tuning the radio.