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95 Sprite Rebuild & 16V Conversion


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#676 Maccmike8

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 02:39 PM

OK so I have a massive milestone completed today!!

 

Before I get to that I have sorted all the fluid, bled the clutch and brakes and found a couple of issues, first was simple, I had managed to not fully tighten a union on one of the rear brake pipes so sprung a leak there which I had to fix, then the more serious issue was a leak from the brake limiter valve which I could not fix, clearly one of the threads was shot as I could not tighten it enough to stop the leak so I had to replace it, another 100 quid spent and one less original part but it wasn't quite as fiddly to replace as I imagined, I was able to do it without removing the servo (the flexible lines helped).

 

Anyway, that isn't particularly interesting, but the fact that I got it started is!

 

First up I turned it over with injectors disconnected, HT leads off and fuel pump fuse removed, after settling my nerves and plucking up the courage I turned the key, and I was very happy to see oil pressure build very quickly, so that was the first part of this milestone passed, I had not expected it to be quite that straightforward.

 

Next up setting the throttle position sensor in the ECU so it knows where 0% and 100% are, this was simple, I then checked that the crank was syncing, and it was so with this I thought I was ready to rock and roll.

 

Everything connected up again, some more courage required as even more nerves were building but off we go, start attempt 1 - FAILED. It turned freely and tried to fire, open the throttle and I get some flames through the intake and it then struggled. I could also see the stark plugs were black and wet with fuel and I can see some fuel on the top of the pistons so I'm guessing at the very least it's over fuelled, but it is trying to fire.

 

Time for a think, first up the injectors, I replaced the stock 150cc with new Bosch 480cc units and I recall reading in the manual for the ECU a paragraph that dealt with changing injectors, some simple maths required to change the pulse width duration as the base map was set up for the stock injectors. Still will not start up but there's clearly less fuel now.

 

Then I got to thinking it's a problem with the firing order, no clear instructions in the build guide for the order for connecting the HT leads to the coil and I see conflicting info on the web when trying to find out, being bank holiday weekend I thought it unlikely I'd get a reply from SC if I tried them , a couple of different configurations later and still no joy, but I think I worked out which is correct.

 

So I slept on it and came back to it this morning, I had a thought that perhaps I'm getting too little air in at zero throttle, so I adjusted the throttle so it was slightly more open at zero, I also noticed that the throttle on cylinder 4 was sightly more open than the others so I adjusted this. I used a very thin piece of paper to ensure I had just enough gap between the edge of the butterflies and the inside of the throttle bodies to grab the paper lightly but not so much that it wouldn't slide out. I also reset the HT leads to what I thought was correct.

 

So back into the car, re-checked TPS calibration, needed a little tweak, less nerves now having attempted a start a few times so I was less hesitant to turn the key, and to my massive surprise SUCCESS, it fired up! it was a little rough, especially at idle, I had not started my video so went back to set the phone up and started it again, and here is the evidence...

 

http://youtu.be/fOFEQfuijAM

 

I've run it a little longer to see how it goes, it's definitely a bit rough at idle, but not so bad with the application of a little throttle, it also seems to rev freely, as it warms up it gets more lumpy at idle and struggles a bit at times requiring a touch of throttle to prevent it stopping, oil pressure is maintained and no leaks so far so I'm very relieved!

 

http://youtu.be/xvh6_2scZlU

 

BUT, I'm not sure what to do, I'll get in touch with SC, they may have a base map that is better suited, they supplied the injectors and told me they are what they generally fit to their own builds so hopefully they have a better map. I'm not sure if it's; a fueling problem, the throttle needing a little tweak (either more open or closed at zero), idle speed needing a tweak or maybe ignition timing. Some of this I can see how to adjust, others not so much but where to start??

 

One thing I have noticed is that RPM reported by the ECU do not match the rev counter, I think the ECU is likely more accurate, rev counter suggests 500RPM at idle, ECU around 1000, it would surely stall at 500.

 

 

So jealous.



#677 GT Jimmy

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 03:11 PM

What a build, I'd be embarrassed parking mine next to yours lol. Can I ask where you got the door bins from?

#678 GraemeC

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 03:14 PM

The way it almost stalls the starter when you first fire it up on that second video does make me think it may be a little too advanced.

 

Where does the rev counter pick its feed up from and what rev counter is it? Is it at 50% all the way through the rev range?

I wonder if it is a rev counter for a wasted spark system and the ECU is giving a traditional 1 ignition signal.


Edited by GraemeC, 03 May 2021 - 03:16 PM.


#679 sonscar

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 04:45 PM

My understanding of EFI is ALWAYS check the timing before starting the engine(disable the injectors)adjust if needed then check it throughout the rev range.Serious damage can be caused in seconds.Have fun,Steve..

#680 Chris1992

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 06:38 PM

Looks awesome mate! I have just fitted a SC built 1380 K1200rs 16v and have had the exact same issues as you. 

 

I had an absolute headache getting it to fire, to the point where I eventually had to pull the engine and send it back to SC for them to diagnose on the dyno. turned out the plug for the coil was wired backwards and two of the throttle bodies weren't opening, 

 

Once I got it to fire, I also found that as the engine got warmer, the worse it ran. I spoke to John at SC and he sent me over a new map to try which seemed to fix the issue. Are you running the Delta 400 ECU by any chance? I have heard from many people that the base map on these is not great, and best to get it on a dyno as soon as possible before running in too much. 

 

Also, regarding the injectors. Get rid of the 440cc once that SC supply as they are far too big and could lead to bore wash, and get some 220cc ones instead. You can usually pick up some BMW ones off ebay for a decent price. This is what I did, and also asked John to tweak the map to suit which he did with no questions. Mine runs much sweeter now but I'm still getting it on the rollers just in case.

 

Give me a shout if you have any other issues.  :thumbsup:  Also Northernpower and Sonik4 on here have both been incredibly helpful during my build, as they are both building SC 8 port engines with the same ECU. 


Edited by Chris1992, 03 May 2021 - 08:33 PM.


#681 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 08:15 AM

Thanks everybody!!

 

If it runs the ECU has to be right,there may be a setting to adjust the tach.480 cc injectors are good for 500bhp or thereabouts.Have fun,nice build,Steve..

 

That was my thinking also1

 

What a build, I'd be embarrassed parking mine next to yours lol. Can I ask where you got the door bins from?

 

Thanks :-) the door bins were from bolt on bits on Ebay, I also got rear bins from them which match and are more or less replicas of the bins which were installed in the MPI models, I think they finish the interior off nicely.

 

The way it almost stalls the starter when you first fire it up on that second video does make me think it may be a little too advanced.

 

Where does the rev counter pick its feed up from and what rev counter is it? Is it at 50% all the way through the rev range?

I wonder if it is a rev counter for a wasted spark system and the ECU is giving a traditional 1 ignition signal.

 

I'm not 100% sure what the timing should be set at, I'm guessing as per the bike at 6deg BTDC, I'll check with SC.

Rev counter is just the standard item from the late model cars, I can't see any way of adjusting, other maybe than attempting to force the needle round to start at a different point, ECU is definitely set up for wasted spark as well, I also think it's maybe not exactly 50% off, I'll check this properly again next time I run it.

 

Looks awesome mate! I have just fitted a SC built 1380 K1200rs 16v and have had the exact same issues as you. 

 

I had an absolute headache getting it to fire, to the point where I eventually had to pull the engine and send it back to SC for them to diagnose on the dyno. turned out the plug for the coil was wired backwards and two of the throttle bodies weren't opening, 

 

Once I got it to fire, I also found that as the engine got warmer, the worse it ran. I spoke to John at SC and he sent me over a new map to try which seemed to fix the issue. Are you running the Delta 400 ECU by any chance? I have heard from many people that the base map on these is not great, and best to get it on a dyno as soon as possible before running in too much. 

 

Also, regarding the injectors. Get rid of the 440cc once that SC supply as they are far too big and could lead to bore wash, and get some 220cc ones instead. You can usually pick up some BMW ones off ebay for a decent price. This is what I did, and also asked John to tweak the map to suit which he did with no questions. Mine runs much sweeter now but I'm still getting it on the rollers just in case.

 

Give me a shout if you have any other issues.  :thumbsup:  Also Northernpower and Sonik4 on here have both been incredibly helpful during my build, as they are both building SC 8 port engines with the same ECU. 

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-) 

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?



#682 sonscar

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 09:33 AM

What feeds the tach?If it is fed from the coil and wasted spark it will read half.If from the ecu(tach feed?) there may be a programmable output setting but I am not familiar with this ECU.As has been said the injectors are huge for 100ish BHP.Steve..



#683 Chris1992

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 09:54 AM

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-)

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?

 

No problem! These are injectors I bought and they do the job perfectly;

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/223966135443

 

I'm afraid I have no idea what my timing is set to. My engine was built and set up for me completely by SC.  >_<  I should probably find this out though! 



#684 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:36 AM

 

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-)

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?

 

No problem! These are injectors I bought and they do the job perfectly;

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/223966135443

 

I'm afraid I have no idea what my timing is set to. My engine was built and set up for me completely by SC.  >_<  I should probably find this out though! 

 

Thanks!!



#685 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:38 AM

What feeds the tach?If it is fed from the coil and wasted spark it will read half.If from the ecu(tach feed?) there may be a programmable output setting but I am not familiar with this ECU.As has been said the injectors are huge for 100ish BHP.Steve..

 

That is a good question, forgot to address it earlier, I had to look back at what was done with the loom, I am fairly sure it's feeding from the ECU, so you might be right, something needs adjusting, I will see what I can work out from the documentation, otherwise I can follow up on this with SC....


Edited by alchall, 04 May 2021 - 11:40 AM.


#686 72hump

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:14 AM

God, where do I start, firstly your car is looking stunning, and what a great job in getting your engine running. Between yourself and Chris 1992, this has been a great help in aiding all the other guys that are thinking of building this conversion, and guys like myself who are pretty close to firing up their engines. As Chris 1992 mentioned about the size of the injectors, I've decided to change my ones out before I go to far with the engine build.

In hopefully the not to distant future, I might rack your brains on the ECU settings, as I have a Typhoon ECU in my car, so hopefully the software isn't to different, I did get John at SC to upgrade the firmware and map on it for the BMW head conversion.

I look forward to reading about how you get on with the tachometer/ECU problem.

Anyway, great work as always.

Paul.

#687 alchall

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 03:13 PM

I didn't spend much time on the car this weekend but I have worked some things out....

 

Injectors are actually 440cc not 480cc so I had adjusted the pulse width duration too far, I adjusted this, but will switch the injectors as advised to 220cc alternatives

The throttle bodies needed balancing, I picked up a synchrometer from Amazon, actually they were not far out but this tweak along with the above has smoothed the running somewhat

I think ignition timing should be around 6deg assuming the bike default is the right starting point, I think the ECU is setup at 5. I don't have a perfect means of checking, I have a clear marker for TDC on the crank damper, and can approximate 5 deg judging by the teeth on the trigger wheel which are 10 deg apart and was able to make a second "mark" with a thin slice of masking tape at around the 5deg BTDC point. Using a basic timing light it looks to be about right, I certainly don't have a huge problem here for sure.

 

Here's it starting and running having already warmed up, it's better than it was...

 

 

However, something odd is going on with water temperature readings, I've got conflicting readings between ECU and the gauges in the car....

 

While I was letting it run and warm up I kept my eye on temps and pressures, the gauges in the car looked fine, water temp gauge gets above the half way point but not into the red, oil pressure is fine and oil temp didn't really get much past about 60c.

 

Now I am reasonably confident in the gauges, I tested them in hot water just off the boil towards the end of the build, the oil temp gauge reading agreed with my thermometer reading in the water and at 80c or thereabouts the water temperature gauge in the car was reading somewhere between half way and the start of the red zone.

 

To my alarm however I noticed that the ECU water temp reading had crept up to 100c and the fan had not kicked in, so I shut it off. One other thing I know is that the fan works, it is triggered from the sensor switch at the bottom of the radiator and I can trigger it by manually by unplugging the cables and shorting them.

 

So I have one of three issues; 1) the water temp sensor used by the ECU is faulty, 2) the ECU is not correctly synchronised with the sensor it uses, 3) the switch on the radiator is faulty. I'm going to have to dump the coolant and check these things out.



#688 alchall

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Posted 24 May 2021 - 04:19 PM

I seem to have made some significant improvement now....

 

I switched the injectors to 190cc Bosch units, I also started from scratch with the ECU and idle setup - re-loaded the base map, closed the idle screw back to where I started, I opened up all 4 balancing screws on the TB's by exactly 2 turns, (I had #4 set all the way in and I had to balance the other 3 against that so my guess is it was hampering setup), re-set TPS calibration, adjusted pulse width for the slightly larger than stock injectors (now 190 vs 150 stock, so much less of a change from default in the ECU settings than previous).

 

I also dropped the coolant and tested the sensors, the sensor for the ECU seems accurate to a couple of deg c when comparing ECU readout with a thermometer in water just off the boil, so that's fine, I already know the sensor used for the gauge on the dash is good leaving just the switch in the radiator that could be at fault.

 

I tested whether it would switch on, again in water straight out of the kettle, my thermometer suggested 96 deg c and it should switch on at 92, so I presumed faulty and ordered a new one, only 15 quid so no biggy. When it arrived I tested it, and it also did not switch in water at 96 straight out of the kettle, so now I'm scratching my head, I can't have 2 faulty switches, so I put some water in a small pan and filled it just enough with water so the sensor could sit in it up to the end of the threads and set the pan boiling on the hob, and at about 98 both switches close, the new one stays closed a little longer as temp drops so I decided to use it.

 

So obviously I re-fitted the switch and re-filled the coolant!

 

Anyway, the interest bit, a new video, as you can see it now runs much more smoothly than before with almost no faffing about other than one tweak to idle to bring it down from just over 1000rpm to 950rpm and then to once again balance the throttle bodies.

 

 

The eagle eyed my spot a change to the fuel hose at the regulator end, I was getting some extremely light seepage of fuel there so decided to change to one of the ends I had in my selection of parts to see if it would hold better, I left the other end alone for now. And that seems to have fixed it so I will switch the other end too at some point, it's also a little neater I think, perhaps I'll switch them both for black ones too!

 

Having left it running the water temp gets up as high as 107 / 108 on the ECU if left idling, but the fan still isn't switching, probably due to the placement of the sensor (top hose) vs switch (bottom of rad) it's getting no higher when left idling, it drops a little when running the heater (obviously) and drops a further with some revs which again is probably obvious as it's turning the mechanical fan more quickly and circulating the water more rapidly.

 

But I noticed that there's now an odd squeak, or chirp at idle, it seems to be coming from the front of the engine, it could be fan belt but I'm not so sure, so welcome any thoughts from my friendly viewers :-)

 

 

My other little issue I have is a very minor leak coming from the oil pressure release valve cap, although it's barely perceptible - I had a tiny spot of oil under the car that looked like it was coming from the drain plug but on closer inspection I could see it was coming from higher up, I checked that the sump plug and the oil pressure relieve valve cap were both torqued to spec and they are, so I think I probably need to replace the copper washer on the cap to fix this. Pressure seems good, I've only run at idle and up to 3000rpm and it's maxing out at just under 75psi and settles at around 50 at idle when hot, never outside the "normal" range indicated on the gauge. I can't remember if I switch to ball bearing type relive valve or stuck with the traditional type, I believe there's more chance of oil getting past the valve with a ball bearing.

 

 

 



#689 Chris1992

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Posted 28 May 2021 - 09:14 AM

Sorry if you've mentioned this before, but what oil are you using? I've been running in my 16v with cheap Silverhook 10w40, but now the time has come to flush it out and put the good stuff in. I've been looking at Millers 15w40 Pistoneeze which is a decent price on ebay. 



#690 alchall

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Posted 28 May 2021 - 01:37 PM

Hi Chris, I did quite a lot of research on this, my conclusion is that Millers CVT is the best, including for these 16v conversions, but it is not suitable for running in, I'm using mini spares own branded oil for now, I'll switch to millers CVT once run in.

 

Minispares own brand oil - http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

Millers CVT - http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

Millers isn't cheap but considering the expense of the build and the importance of oil I'd say it's worth it!






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