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95 Sprite Rebuild & 16V Conversion


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#676 Maccmike8

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 02:39 PM

OK so I have a massive milestone completed today!!

 

Before I get to that I have sorted all the fluid, bled the clutch and brakes and found a couple of issues, first was simple, I had managed to not fully tighten a union on one of the rear brake pipes so sprung a leak there which I had to fix, then the more serious issue was a leak from the brake limiter valve which I could not fix, clearly one of the threads was shot as I could not tighten it enough to stop the leak so I had to replace it, another 100 quid spent and one less original part but it wasn't quite as fiddly to replace as I imagined, I was able to do it without removing the servo (the flexible lines helped).

 

Anyway, that isn't particularly interesting, but the fact that I got it started is!

 

First up I turned it over with injectors disconnected, HT leads off and fuel pump fuse removed, after settling my nerves and plucking up the courage I turned the key, and I was very happy to see oil pressure build very quickly, so that was the first part of this milestone passed, I had not expected it to be quite that straightforward.

 

Next up setting the throttle position sensor in the ECU so it knows where 0% and 100% are, this was simple, I then checked that the crank was syncing, and it was so with this I thought I was ready to rock and roll.

 

Everything connected up again, some more courage required as even more nerves were building but off we go, start attempt 1 - FAILED. It turned freely and tried to fire, open the throttle and I get some flames through the intake and it then struggled. I could also see the stark plugs were black and wet with fuel and I can see some fuel on the top of the pistons so I'm guessing at the very least it's over fuelled, but it is trying to fire.

 

Time for a think, first up the injectors, I replaced the stock 150cc with new Bosch 480cc units and I recall reading in the manual for the ECU a paragraph that dealt with changing injectors, some simple maths required to change the pulse width duration as the base map was set up for the stock injectors. Still will not start up but there's clearly less fuel now.

 

Then I got to thinking it's a problem with the firing order, no clear instructions in the build guide for the order for connecting the HT leads to the coil and I see conflicting info on the web when trying to find out, being bank holiday weekend I thought it unlikely I'd get a reply from SC if I tried them , a couple of different configurations later and still no joy, but I think I worked out which is correct.

 

So I slept on it and came back to it this morning, I had a thought that perhaps I'm getting too little air in at zero throttle, so I adjusted the throttle so it was slightly more open at zero, I also noticed that the throttle on cylinder 4 was sightly more open than the others so I adjusted this. I used a very thin piece of paper to ensure I had just enough gap between the edge of the butterflies and the inside of the throttle bodies to grab the paper lightly but not so much that it wouldn't slide out. I also reset the HT leads to what I thought was correct.

 

So back into the car, re-checked TPS calibration, needed a little tweak, less nerves now having attempted a start a few times so I was less hesitant to turn the key, and to my massive surprise SUCCESS, it fired up! it was a little rough, especially at idle, I had not started my video so went back to set the phone up and started it again, and here is the evidence...

 

http://youtu.be/fOFEQfuijAM

 

I've run it a little longer to see how it goes, it's definitely a bit rough at idle, but not so bad with the application of a little throttle, it also seems to rev freely, as it warms up it gets more lumpy at idle and struggles a bit at times requiring a touch of throttle to prevent it stopping, oil pressure is maintained and no leaks so far so I'm very relieved!

 

http://youtu.be/xvh6_2scZlU

 

BUT, I'm not sure what to do, I'll get in touch with SC, they may have a base map that is better suited, they supplied the injectors and told me they are what they generally fit to their own builds so hopefully they have a better map. I'm not sure if it's; a fueling problem, the throttle needing a little tweak (either more open or closed at zero), idle speed needing a tweak or maybe ignition timing. Some of this I can see how to adjust, others not so much but where to start??

 

One thing I have noticed is that RPM reported by the ECU do not match the rev counter, I think the ECU is likely more accurate, rev counter suggests 500RPM at idle, ECU around 1000, it would surely stall at 500.

 

 

So jealous.



#677 GT Jimmy

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 03:11 PM

What a build, I'd be embarrassed parking mine next to yours lol. Can I ask where you got the door bins from?

#678 GraemeC

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 03:14 PM

The way it almost stalls the starter when you first fire it up on that second video does make me think it may be a little too advanced.

 

Where does the rev counter pick its feed up from and what rev counter is it? Is it at 50% all the way through the rev range?

I wonder if it is a rev counter for a wasted spark system and the ECU is giving a traditional 1 ignition signal.


Edited by GraemeC, 03 May 2021 - 03:16 PM.


#679 sonscar

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 04:45 PM

My understanding of EFI is ALWAYS check the timing before starting the engine(disable the injectors)adjust if needed then check it throughout the rev range.Serious damage can be caused in seconds.Have fun,Steve..

#680 Chris1992

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 06:38 PM

Looks awesome mate! I have just fitted a SC built 1380 K1200rs 16v and have had the exact same issues as you. 

 

I had an absolute headache getting it to fire, to the point where I eventually had to pull the engine and send it back to SC for them to diagnose on the dyno. turned out the plug for the coil was wired backwards and two of the throttle bodies weren't opening, 

 

Once I got it to fire, I also found that as the engine got warmer, the worse it ran. I spoke to John at SC and he sent me over a new map to try which seemed to fix the issue. Are you running the Delta 400 ECU by any chance? I have heard from many people that the base map on these is not great, and best to get it on a dyno as soon as possible before running in too much. 

 

Also, regarding the injectors. Get rid of the 440cc once that SC supply as they are far too big and could lead to bore wash, and get some 220cc ones instead. You can usually pick up some BMW ones off ebay for a decent price. This is what I did, and also asked John to tweak the map to suit which he did with no questions. Mine runs much sweeter now but I'm still getting it on the rollers just in case.

 

Give me a shout if you have any other issues.  :thumbsup:  Also Northernpower and Sonik4 on here have both been incredibly helpful during my build, as they are both building SC 8 port engines with the same ECU. 


Edited by Chris1992, 03 May 2021 - 08:33 PM.


#681 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 08:15 AM

Thanks everybody!!

 

If it runs the ECU has to be right,there may be a setting to adjust the tach.480 cc injectors are good for 500bhp or thereabouts.Have fun,nice build,Steve..

 

That was my thinking also1

 

What a build, I'd be embarrassed parking mine next to yours lol. Can I ask where you got the door bins from?

 

Thanks :-) the door bins were from bolt on bits on Ebay, I also got rear bins from them which match and are more or less replicas of the bins which were installed in the MPI models, I think they finish the interior off nicely.

 

The way it almost stalls the starter when you first fire it up on that second video does make me think it may be a little too advanced.

 

Where does the rev counter pick its feed up from and what rev counter is it? Is it at 50% all the way through the rev range?

I wonder if it is a rev counter for a wasted spark system and the ECU is giving a traditional 1 ignition signal.

 

I'm not 100% sure what the timing should be set at, I'm guessing as per the bike at 6deg BTDC, I'll check with SC.

Rev counter is just the standard item from the late model cars, I can't see any way of adjusting, other maybe than attempting to force the needle round to start at a different point, ECU is definitely set up for wasted spark as well, I also think it's maybe not exactly 50% off, I'll check this properly again next time I run it.

 

Looks awesome mate! I have just fitted a SC built 1380 K1200rs 16v and have had the exact same issues as you. 

 

I had an absolute headache getting it to fire, to the point where I eventually had to pull the engine and send it back to SC for them to diagnose on the dyno. turned out the plug for the coil was wired backwards and two of the throttle bodies weren't opening, 

 

Once I got it to fire, I also found that as the engine got warmer, the worse it ran. I spoke to John at SC and he sent me over a new map to try which seemed to fix the issue. Are you running the Delta 400 ECU by any chance? I have heard from many people that the base map on these is not great, and best to get it on a dyno as soon as possible before running in too much. 

 

Also, regarding the injectors. Get rid of the 440cc once that SC supply as they are far too big and could lead to bore wash, and get some 220cc ones instead. You can usually pick up some BMW ones off ebay for a decent price. This is what I did, and also asked John to tweak the map to suit which he did with no questions. Mine runs much sweeter now but I'm still getting it on the rollers just in case.

 

Give me a shout if you have any other issues.  :thumbsup:  Also Northernpower and Sonik4 on here have both been incredibly helpful during my build, as they are both building SC 8 port engines with the same ECU. 

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-) 

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?



#682 sonscar

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 09:33 AM

What feeds the tach?If it is fed from the coil and wasted spark it will read half.If from the ecu(tach feed?) there may be a programmable output setting but I am not familiar with this ECU.As has been said the injectors are huge for 100ish BHP.Steve..



#683 Chris1992

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 09:54 AM

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-)

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?

 

No problem! These are injectors I bought and they do the job perfectly;

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/223966135443

 

I'm afraid I have no idea what my timing is set to. My engine was built and set up for me completely by SC.  >_<  I should probably find this out though! 



#684 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:36 AM

 

 

Thanks for the pointers and the offer for help! I'll look out for the smaller injectors and I'll also be talking to SC today, if they have an alternative map that may help, and it is a delta 400 ECU, I do intend to get it rolling road tuned but need to simply get it on the road and through an MOT first of course :-)

 

What do you have your ignition timing set to?

 

No problem! These are injectors I bought and they do the job perfectly;

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/223966135443

 

I'm afraid I have no idea what my timing is set to. My engine was built and set up for me completely by SC.  >_<  I should probably find this out though! 

 

Thanks!!



#685 alchall

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:38 AM

What feeds the tach?If it is fed from the coil and wasted spark it will read half.If from the ecu(tach feed?) there may be a programmable output setting but I am not familiar with this ECU.As has been said the injectors are huge for 100ish BHP.Steve..

 

That is a good question, forgot to address it earlier, I had to look back at what was done with the loom, I am fairly sure it's feeding from the ECU, so you might be right, something needs adjusting, I will see what I can work out from the documentation, otherwise I can follow up on this with SC....


Edited by alchall, 04 May 2021 - 11:40 AM.


#686 72hump

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Posted Yesterday, 08:14 AM

God, where do I start, firstly your car is looking stunning, and what a great job in getting your engine running. Between yourself and Chris 1992, this has been a great help in aiding all the other guys that are thinking of building this conversion, and guys like myself who are pretty close to firing up their engines. As Chris 1992 mentioned about the size of the injectors, I've decided to change my ones out before I go to far with the engine build.

In hopefully the not to distant future, I might rack your brains on the ECU settings, as I have a Typhoon ECU in my car, so hopefully the software isn't to different, I did get John at SC to upgrade the firmware and map on it for the BMW head conversion.

I look forward to reading about how you get on with the tachometer/ECU problem.

Anyway, great work as always.

Paul.




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