24 replies to this topic

[olly33]

Hi all. Just going back to this topic and no reply to my results above....I spoke to couple guys at bingley today about this and as I have no blue/black smoke coming out the exhaust when running they suggest it maybe either my timing side pcv maybe blocked,but if I blow down it air is hissing out the oil cap so I assume clear enough?

 

The other issue they suggested was the primary gear bushes worn or scorned,letting oil past up the crank,but would'nt my clutch be soaked in oil?,as it was working fine and when removed.It was worn but not oily from what I remember.

The engine is out but unsure where to start looking,rings or maybe just a easy primary gear bush replacement job.

 

I think my initial oil out the dipstick hole was just a loose stick in the block,as the same dipstick is a lot tighter in the stop gap metro 1000 engine currently running in the car. 

Need to start looking somewhere but trying to do the minimum on strip down/cost.

 

Cheers. 

[Sprocket]

What is the issue here? Oil out the dipstick or water in the catch can?

Oil out the dipstick hole is not uncommon, oil gets thrown up at the hole from the inside as the crank rotates. Ive seen people fit a spring from the distributor clamp up the ring in the dipstic to keep it firmly in place. No real biggie.

Water in the catch can is very common. The catch can is usually much much cooler than the engine. Air is drawn in through the crankcase via the various breathers especially when a hot engine cools down. The air holds a lot of moisture which condenses out inside the engine at this time of the year, the water then evaporates again as the engine warms up and leaves via the breathers. As the catch can is now the cold bit, the vapour condenses as water in the catch can.

The only realy way to determine engine condition is by a test called a leak down test, but the test AC Dodd suggested is nice and simple which will show the crankcase pressure in a running engine, you only need a simple manometer or small scale pressure gauge to see what pressure the crankcase is acheiving.

In the main, the breathers should be attached to the carb, as the engine consumes more air (high RPM under load) the slight depression in the carb positively draws the crankcase gasses out of the engine by the bernoulli effect. We are not talking a huge depression here, just enough to ventilate the crankcase. Hence the term 'positive' cankcase ventilation.

If the engine is performing well it is hardly likely that you have such a problem with the ring seal especially if its not consuming oil, remembering thay the old A series does use more oil than a modern engine. If you have lots of oil out of the breathers, which from what has been said, is not the case, may indicate a stronger possability of a heavy breathing engine. Some engines are just heavy breathers. i dont think you have anything to be concerned about, but that is simply a point of view since I have no way of assessing the engine for myself.

The breather cans do tend to get gummed up and present a greater resistance to gas flow even when they appear 'clear'. Any particularly aged ones would certainly benefit from a good soaking in a solvent cleaner (off the engine) and then blown through with air. Better still, new replacemwnts where available.

Also while here, the infamous 'mayo' does build up in breathers more so in winter and is not a sign of head gasket failure as some might suggest. Short journeys that dont allow the engine and oil to warm up fully for sufficiently long enough periods will see 'mayo' build up. That is just the condensed moisture from the air.

Edited by Sprocket, 29 January 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[olly33]

Sprocket. The issue is oil leaking out the split pin hole in the clutch case. Fitted 2 new clutch case oil seals within probably 200 miles and its leaking from here yet again. Cannot say if it is defiantly coming from the seal,just its leaking from the split pin hole again. Engines out now,as peeps suggested rings blowing by,but why do I get no smoke from the exhaust,hence the primary gear suggestion.

Cheers

[Dusky]

How far do you push the seal in?
Wonder if you could have a hairline crack in the transfer case or something similar, but it would probably be very clear upon dossasembly

[olly33]

Seal just flush or slightly past the front edge. Never noticed anything,but engine was in car when they were changed. Engine is out now,so may investigate further,but not something you look for when just replacing the seal I guess when engine in situ.
Anybody know of companies in brum that will do just a evaluation on what parts would be needed by taking a look at the engine,but not nesscary do the work if its to expensive for me to afford at that time.

[phil hill]

Sprocket. The issue is oil leaking out the split pin hole in the clutch case. Fitted 2 new clutch case oil seals within probably 200 miles and its leaking from here yet again. Cannot say if it is defiantly coming from the seal,just its leaking from the split pin hole again. Engines out now,as peeps suggested rings blowing by,but why do I get no smoke from the exhaust,hence the primary gear suggestion.
Cheers

I had exactly the symptoms you describe from my car. Clutch was fine, breathing was fine, but a small puddle of oil out of the "tell-tail" when the engine was hot. It was the primary gear bushes.

Phil.

[GraemeC]

When you strip down the clutch/flywheel look very carefully where there may be signs of oil leakage.

If it is worst on the rear face of the flywheel, or on the clutch plate (and has generally been flung everywhere) then chances are it is primary gear bushes.

If it is running down the back face of the housing behind the flywheel then it is most likely the seal

[Spider]

Did you try running it with the Oil Filler cap off first to let it vent there if there's excessive crankcase pressure?

While it can spit out the Primary Gear Seal, usually is will spit out at other places first, dip stick, distributor, rocker cover, crankcase vents etc.

 

I think I mentioned it elsewhere recently, however have a good look at the flywheel when disassembling. When you get the clutch cover (wok) off, if there's oil on the outside face of the flywheel, that's most likely primary gear bushes, if it's on the transfer housing (after removing the flywheel), then that's likely the Seal.

 

The flywheel has tell-tale holes around the hub.

 

Not many garages do this, but a manometer pressure test on the crankcase pressure will tell you what's going on. No anything over 2inches of water (positive pressure) at 6krpm (open breathers oil cap off) means engine rebuild.

Ac

 

It's also how I test for it.

 

You can easily make your own Manometer. All you need is a strip of timber about 2' (600 mm) long and some 3/4" to 1" clear plastic tubing clipped to it. Keep the top end open and the other end connects to the crankcase. Position the Manometer lower than the crankcase, put some water in it, so you can see it on the lower end of the gauge run the engine and then connect. Don't have it connected when starting or stopping the engine and watch it carefully when connecting that there's not a negative pressure, ie, it should rise, but can also drop, unlikely with our engines, but just something to use a bit of caution with or you may end up with that water in the sump.

Edited by Moke Spider, 30 January 2017 - 06:27 PM.

[olly33]

When you strip down the clutch/flywheel look very carefully where there may be signs of oil leakage.

If it is worst on the rear face of the flywheel, or on the clutch plate (and has generally been flung everywhere) then chances are it is primary gear bushes.

If it is running down the back face of the housing behind the flywheel then it is most likely the seal

I took the clutch and flywheel off some time ago,as i needed it to fit in the metro engine and there was visually no oil over the clutch or flywheel outer face. The oil was just pooled below the seal on the ledge,so guess running out the seal. 

 

Did you try running it with the Oil Filler cap off first to let it vent there if there's excessive crankcase pressure?

While it can spit out the Primary Gear Seal, usually is will spit out at other places first, dip stick, distributor, rocker cover, crankcase vents etc.

 

I think I mentioned it elsewhere recently, however have a good look at the flywheel when disassembling. When you get the clutch cover (wok) off, if there's oil on the outside face of the flywheel, that's most likely primary gear bushes, if it's on the transfer housing (after removing the flywheel), then that's likely the Seal.

 

The flywheel has tell-tale holes around the hub.

 

Not many garages do this, but a manometer pressure test on the crankcase pressure will tell you what's going on. No anything over 2inches of water (positive pressure) at 6krpm (open breathers oil cap off) means engine rebuild.

Ac

 

It's also how I test for it.

 

You can easily make your own Manometer. All you need is a strip of timber about 2' (600 mm) long and some 3/4" to 1" clear plastic tubing clipped to it. Keep the top end open and the other end connects to the crankcase. Position the Manometer lower than the crankcase, put some water in it, so you can see it on the lower end of the gauge run the engine and then connect. Don't have it connected when starting or stopping the engine and watch it carefully when connecting that there's not a negative pressure, ie, it should rise, but can also drop, unlikely with our engines, but just something to use a bit of caution with or you may end up with that water in the sump.

No did not run it with the oil filler cap off unfortunately. I did have oil come out the dipstick hole by I think that was due to it being loose in the block and new seals on the stick did help this. Slight oil mist from the pcv's when I had the little cone type filters fitted,but then I plumbed them back to the carb.No oil from anywhere else. What are Tell-tail holes?

Oil was on the transfer housing as mentioned above,But the reason is why it keeps leaking here.

 

I spoke to Sh Engineering today and he could only really suggest by other info I gave him is the Primary gear might have a groove where the seal sits on it in the casing from constant spinning,and as the groove will by lower than the sealing of the seal the oil can just come past through this groove. Could also be worn bushes as mentioned,but no splatter on front of flywheel clutch?

Will add pic of my crank and primary gear to see what you think,as I only have pics from when I originally removed the clutch to do the seal last time,so cannot actually inspect the part yet again until I strip it down once more.

 

 

 

Confuseddotcom!

Cheers

[MRA]

Olly, without trawling through the whole post....  can you state what power output you have and which seal you are using ? 

 

My reasons are...

 

1) the later primary seals (brown in colour) are no good for higher power or revs than standard, they are excellent for standard or lower output engines.  There are some very poor quality red seals available and you may have picked up 2 of those.

2) The crankshaft can bend considerably, try watching a half decent turbo engine on the dyno and watch what happens to the flywheel as it comes on boost, and it could be that this amount of bend is working the seal too hard.