41 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

This car is well known as having no relation to it's original form, and very little effort has been made to make any of it correct. They tried selling it last year for over £100k and it didn't sell then, even with people in the room bidding it up to try to get it moving

 

The current owner should really have invested a lot more money and effort over the years into restoring it to as near original spec as possible rather than just relying on the reg number to sell it in todays market at such a high price.

[Cooperman]

To go slightly off topic, if I may, on the 1969 Circuit of Ireland I was co-driving the very quick Jock Russell in a 911 Porsche with a Stuttgart 'works' 2.0 litre engine. Unfortunately the suspension broke and we couldn't fix it in the 15 minutes max lateness allowed at the start of each special stage. So we went to help our good friend Rob Lawrence who was in his newly-acquired ex-works 'S'.

He was lying well into the top 10, but the car was getting very hot. I noticed that it had been incorrectly with a 16-blade fan so we needed to change it for a 4-blade which we didn't have. Rob's mechanics asked the 'works' service crew if they could let them have a 4-blade fan, but they said no. So I went and found Paddy, who sort-of owed me a favour, and he went and got me a 4-blade fan straight away. We set up for changing it when we had about 45 minutes available service time and we got there a bit early and set up to do it. I said I would do it, but that I needed to be passed the tools when I asked for them. We did it in about 35 minutes and Rob went on to a top 10 finish, which pleased the 'works' team as they had 3 Minis in the top 10 on a major event.

Rob did a lot of rallying in that car and it must have been very tired by about 1972. I would assume it had to have another shell, but back then we would still have regarded it as the same car (I still would!) as that was what happened, and still does.

The problem with this car now is the availability of continuous history, not a shell change. Now that is where the big question comes!

 

What used to happen, shell-wise, was this. A rally (or race) car would have a shell which was no longer fit for purpose due to accident damage or simple wear and tear. There were a lot of 850 Minis which were involved in accidents and the cost of repairing them was deemed not economical by the insurance companies. However, the damage was not bad and they were otherwise rust & damage free. They would be bought for salvage and a shell with minimal damage when stripped down could be bought for maybe around £75. Whilst stripped it would be repaired, an easy job, and seam welded and strengthened as necessary and the old car simply built into this shell. It might be painted the original colour, or not. It was not a long job with several people working on it and the car could be rallying in around 5 to 6 weeks. This was all accepted practice and if 850 shells were as readily available now it still would be.

 

Of course, the purists, who in the main were not competing at that level in the 1960's & '70's, will be aghast at this, but it was necessary. If I badly damaged my 1964 Cooper 'S' now I would still do it rather than lose the car completely.

 

Yesterday I was with a guy who is a senior person in the classic car movement. There was a meeting with the DVLA not long ago and the subject of re-shelling came up. It seems the DVLA stated the rules, but then said that they are not really interested so long as the car is correct in its model/type specification and has the correct VIN and engine numbers and is properly MoT'd and insured. They are only concerned if there is strong evidence the shell is stolen and they need that before they will even start to investigate. So it is not really the big issue some make it out to be. After all, the body-shell was just a part number in the BMC parts lists.

[mab01uk]

At the end of the day its virtually impossible for a vehicle made up of a collection of mechanical parts to survive unmolested over many years unless it goes straight from the event into a museum never to be used again. Even the works Minis in Gaydon have many incorrect non-original parts fitted. I can remember the original and replica works Minis going around the country for display in BMC showrooms in the 60's and 70's and mechanics I knew were swapping off bits for their own Minis as souvenirs! Nobody in charge knew or cared as at the time these cars were not thought to be future valuable museum pieces to be retained in perfect original as rallied condition.

 

A couple of years ago at a Motor Club talk about the BMC Works days, Stuart Turner said it made him laugh to see people arguing today over trying to prove the originalty of the BMC Works Mini's with their chequered histories and swapped ID's.

Edited by mab01uk, 31 August 2016 - 07:06 PM.

[Cooperman]

 

May be genuine, but I believe that Abingdon probably swapped registration numbers around as did Ford competitions.
As a side note there is a Cooper S locally that was built with parts from the competitions department.

Well Stuart Turner ran Abingdon before his sabbatical at Castrol and joining Ford. There is an excellent article on building works minis in Motorsport in the late 60s. The theory was that each car was built from scratch for each rally and just took a convenient number. I remember passing a severely damaged Escort being driven down the M6 on a Tuesday, it was going the other way and seeing it in immaculate condition on Thursday afternoon in Willenhall. They sure knocked the roof out quick.

 

My driver, Kevin Videan, and I destroyed a Datsun 240Z on a Motoring News Championship rally, and I mean destroyed it. 2-weeks later we won the next round in a 240Z with the same reg. no. However, it was a different colour, the steering wheel was on the other side (LHD) and it had a different engine & gearbox. In fact it was a different and full 'works' 240Z. The Jap plates were put on our destroyed car and HMRC witnessed the destruction and disposal of the scrap so that no tax liability was incurred and, to all intents, our car was the same as the one which had been destroyed. It happened all the time back then as no-one even thought about classic car enthusiasts being remotely interested 45 to 50 years later.

 

I know of another 'genuine ex-works car', not a Ford, Datsun or BMC, which is a total 'ringer'. It has changed hands at least twice and fetches a lot of money. The owners are happy and the car has been verified as genuine by the original multi-national manufacturer. I only know because I collected the basis of this on my big trailer a long time ago and saw it being built!

[mab01uk]

1965 Monte Carlo victor on display
Morris Mini Cooper S (AJB 4B) in 1966. The winner of the 1965 Monte Carlo rally driven by Timo Makinen and Paul Easter goes on display in the Morris Garages showroom with trophies from all its rally victories. Registration mark AJB 4B Competition number 52. The notice on top of the car is an ironic reference to the contentious disqualifications of the three Mini Coopers which came 1st 2nd and 3rd in the 1966 Monte Carlo rally.


Abingdon BMC Competitions Department 1966. Preparing cars for the Monte Carlo Rally - Mini Cooper S cars in the workshop. Timo Makinen is talking with mechanics near GRX 5D (Competition number 230) which was driven by Paddy Hopkirk.


BMC Competitions Department 1966 Abingdon. Mechanics prepare the Works Mini Cooper S and MGB cars for the Monte Carlo rally held in January.


Abingdon BMC Competitions Department 1966. Preparing cars for the Monte Carlo Rally - the Mini Cooper S cars in the workshop are GRX 195D (Competition number 87) driven by Raymond Baxter and GRX 55D (Competition number 242) driven by Rauno Aaltonen.

[Spider]

Some awesome conversation and views and certainly first hand experience there, Cooperman Wonderful photos mab01uk

 

So, forgive me here, but I'd prefer to say I'm a little naive with cars like these.

 

Does it still rate as being an Ex-works car, despite it being re-shelled (and no doubt many other items changed / replaced)?

 

I think I'm missing something here, but as it's had so many major repairs / replacements how does it it get it's (claimed) value?

[Cooperman]

Basically it is continuous history which is important with competition cars.

They are going to get damaged, sometimes badly, and have to be repaired. So long as they still comply with the FIS or MSA regulations for the events/classes entered they are considered the same vehicle, even if the shell is a different one.

 

What causes the problem is where a well-known car disappears for many years, then re-appears looking almost new and a bit different from the original but still claiming to be the car which 'won' lots of events and was driven by the top drivers/co-drivers of the era. Questions are then, rightfully, asked.

 

A funny story can be told about a Sunbeam Rapier which had an 'ex-works' number plate and 'looked the part'. It was claimed to be all original and was on show at a major classic car event. A slightly older guy walked up and asked questions about the car, being told it was all original. Eventually he climbed in, lifted the carpet and proclaimed the car a 'fake'. He said that he had been a co-driver on a major rally and the gearbox had been leaking oil, so a big hole was cut in the transmission tunnel through which he could pour oil into the gearbox through the top of the 'box without jacking the car up and could do it at stage starts. This car had no hole nor any evidence of a repair patch being welded on. He said he didn't mind it having been re-shelled, but it was claimed as never having been.

 

It's all a bit of a grey area. I did the Scottish International Rally in 1969 in an ex-works Ford, KPU 381C. We had a monumental crash, rolling 4 times and going over 60ft down the side of a mountain (we were lying 2nd overall at the time behind Simo Lampinen in a G'p 6 SAAB). The car, a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina, was re-shelled and still appears at shows, with everyone knowing its history and is accepted as an original 'works' Cortina. Our crash made the pages of the Scottish Daily Mail ("Top Rally Crew in Miracle Escape")! It's history has been continuous.

 

Personally I think we have to be a bit pragmatic about the originality of such iconic cars as these.

[Shooter63]

Provenance is the word you are looking for, and thats what you are/will be/ or won't be bidding on, is it right, in my veiw no, but in the eyes of the law yes. If you fire up the old Google machine and type in " bentley old number one" you will find a famous court case that went down between seller and buyer revolving around a proper bentley and a 10m price tag.An interesting read.
In my veiw all you are buying is a number plate as the cars that actually won the rallies are long gone as others have said. Ringing at the highest level and I'm not sure why it's allowed.

Shooter

( climbs down off of pedestal)

[Cooperman]

It is just so difficult to determine when an 'ex-works' car becomes non-genuine.

 

As examples let me give some scenarios:

 

1. The manufacturer's competitions dep't gets a very badly damaged car back from a rally and takes a new body-shell and re-builds it, then enters more events with the same registration no.

 

2. The manufacturer gets a badly damaged car back and sends it to a repairer to do the shell change, pays the repairer and enters more events with it.

 

3. The car is not damaged, but is sold to a top level private entrant who then crashes it and returns it to the 'works' for repair and they fit a new shell. The owner pays the bill and continues to rally in it.

 

4. A buyer of a genuine ex-works car crashes it some time after buying it and a professional rally prep company sources a different shell & re-builds it for further competition use.

 

5  A competitor who crashes his 'ex-works' car takes it home, sources a replacement shell and re-builds it himself, subsequently having success in it with it still carrying its original identity.

 

6. An employee at the 'works comp dep't' buys an ex-comp car, takes it home and strips out all the competition parts and it is then used by his wife for shopping. An enthusiast buys the car and re-builds it with all new competition parts in order to meet the rules for competition, including a new engine, a new roll cage, new seats, new navigation equipment and new lights. The number plate is unchanged from the car which won a major rally.

 

Now which of the above are no longer genuine 'ex-works' cars. All those scenarios have actually happened to my certain knowledge.

 

That is why it is just so difficult to decide on what constitutes genuine ex-works cars. Of course, all those who compete in such cars just want to win!

[mab01uk]

I think if someone desires to own one of these famous cars it is up to the buyer to first decide what level of originalty they want and how much proof or evidence they require to confirm its history and also whether they are willing to accept a reconstructed replica with a more chequered history at what should be a lower price. As always it is 'buyer beware' and if in doubt walk away or at least consult the many experts and enthusiasts who have spent years researching the history of these cars before parting with your cash.

[Ivor Badger]

I have discussed originality of competition cars with various people over the years. at the racing car show on the Lotus stand there was a chap selling extremely expensive, but not for what they were, model racing cars. He has people photographing cars at GPs, at various times during the day as the spec changes. Aboit the only totally accurate car model on the stand and totally original car in reality is Jim Clark's lotus 38 from Indy in 65 as it only did one race and went straight into a museum.
I was discussing Lotus 25/33s with someone and the only original car is in a museum in Sweden. It is also full of corrosion never having been rebuilt from new and now over 50 years old. Some Lotus 25/33s have reappeared after demises in the 60s. R10 being a good example having ended its original life in the bank at Bottom Bend at Brands Hatch in the Race of Champions in 65. Seen by myself on the Team Lotus stand at the racing car show last year! Went and checked I had the correct car number for the incident by checking the book they were selling on their stand, oops.

As these are competition cars and subject to wear and tear + modifications and improvements, real originality is difficult.

[madaboutcherry]

LOL rally cars were often reshelled weekly.

 

or once or twice a season.

 

I am sure there have been more than a few Ex works cars with the same reg plate as someone founds and restored a discarded shell that happened to have the right number on it somewhere.

 

 

it all comes down to (as they say in the art world) providence.

provenance.

[nicklouse]

 

LOL rally cars were often reshelled weekly.

 

or once or twice a season.

 

I am sure there have been more than a few Ex works cars with the same reg plate as someone founds and restored a discarded shell that happened to have the right number on it somewhere.

 

 

it all comes down to (as they say in the art world) providence.

provenance.

 

that's the word.

[cian]

But what are you really paying for? Are you paying for the history? The engineering and professionals who screwed the car together or the patina? To get a car like that in its virgin originality would be near impossible but 150 grand for that car as it sits is wild but that's my opinion it's worth what someone will pay I guess but I would want something so original it still has the ass sweat stains on the seats lol

[Cooperman]

If you could buy that car for around £45k you could go one of two ways with it.

It could be properly restored to it as originally built specification and used by Abingdon, or it could be prepared to current historic rally regulations.

Either way would give you a superb Cooper 'S' and it would have a high resale value.

But as it is there is no way it is worth the guide price.