41 replies to this topic

[cian]

i love minis but if I had that kind of flash money that car certainly wouldn't Rev my engine as it is

[CMXCVIII]

It is just so difficult to determine when an 'ex-works' car becomes non-genuine.

 

.....

 

That is why it is just so difficult to decide on what constitutes genuine ex-works cars.

 

As callow youths in the 1970s, we avidly read the classified ads in Motoring News. We quickly worked out that every successful rally car offered for sale meant it was comprehensively shagged, but "ex-works" cars had been professionally shagged!

 

Then again, I've just remembered that we decided that anything advertised in Autosport was worse. It was both shagged and overpriced!!

I have discussed originality of competition cars with various people over the years. at the racing car show on the Lotus stand there was a chap selling extremely expensive, but not for what they were, model racing cars. He has people photographing cars at GPs, at various times during the day as the spec changes. Aboit the only totally accurate car model on the stand and totally original car in reality is Jim Clark's lotus 38 from Indy in 65 as it only did one race and went straight into a museum.
I was discussing Lotus 25/33s with someone and the only original car is in a museum in Sweden. It is also full of corrosion never having been rebuilt from new and now over 50 years old. Some Lotus 25/33s have reappeared after demises in the 60s. R10 being a good example having ended its original life in the bank at Bottom Bend at Brands Hatch in the Race of Champions in 65. Seen by myself on the Team Lotus stand at the racing car show last year! Went and checked I had the correct car number for the incident by checking the book they were selling on their stand, oops.

As these are competition cars and subject to wear and tear + modifications and improvements, real originality is difficult.

 

With single seaters, all you're ever really buying is the chassis plate.

 

I remember shaking down a Formula Renault at Goodwood [when it was a test circuit] and meeting a guy who had an exceptionally pretty Van Dieman RF82. I complimented him and he laughingly replied, "It's a very rare car, you know! There are only twenty seven left of these that are the original Senna's car!!"

 

But what are you really paying for?

 

I fear that for too many buyers, it's a nice warm feeling and a story to tell at the bar!

 

Although these days, it can also be an invitation to some very expensive motor racing event complete with black tie dinner and dancing afterwards!  The only other requirement for admission to those events is a noticably younger and glamourous second wife

[Cooperman]

I believe it is a question of continuous history. So if an ex-works car has a certain reg. no. with which it did, say, the Alpine rally, then the registration was changed by the works and it did the RAC Rally it is still a 'works' car - but which one?

It might then have been used on the Tulip Rally, still by the 'works', but subsequently sold to a prominent private owner and used by him a lot until a new shell was needed, plus, perhaps, a new block and sub-frames. Such cars can have had a continuous history, but virtually everything will have been changed. Surely no-one can expect to buy a 'works' car which has done enough rallying to make it 'successful' but still with the original body-shell, engine, gearbox & sub-frames. It just can't happen.

The ex-works cars were sold to private owners and had improvements done to them to keep them competitive. Group 1 cars were changed to Group 2. A 1071 might be changed to a 970 or 1275 to ensure it stayed competitive in its class when the class structure changed from 'up to 1200 cc' to 'up to 1000 cc and 'up to 1500 cc' (that's from memory). I did some rallies in 18CRX which started as a works 997 but was re-engined with a 1275 and sold to Paul Easter who sold it to Peter Barker who rallied it with me.

The 'grey' period is usually between around 1975 and the time historic rallying started in around 1982 (the Golden 50 Rally for example) to 1988. Some of the ex-rally cars were kept by their owners and not really used during the intervening years. Who knows what happened to a lot more.

Then historic rallying started, but very soon it became unwise to use a now-valuable ex-works car for serious competition and many of us built 'newly restored' genuine Cooper 'S's or replica Cooper 'S' built up from an 850 shell which are acceptable in competition as Cooper 'S's.

Those who are ultra-critical of ex-works cars seem to fall into two groups. The first group are envious and the second are owners of similar cars who like to see other cars dismissed as fakes which will see the values of their 'genuine' (oh, really) cars increase.

I am just an old rally person who was around during the 'works Mini' period and to me it is becoming rather silly. A person may ask whatever they wish for a car and someone else may decide to pay it. The history is what it is and all anyone can be sure of is that they are buying a number plate with a V5. Now some might claim that their car is the actual car which won such-and-such a rally, but how can they be sure. Even the guys at Abingdon don't now know which number plates were on which cars for which events. It was a matter of expedience really.

So JMO 969D is no more or less a 'works Mini' than most of the others. If I had it I would restore it to the specification it had when I serviced it for Rob Lawrence on the 1969 Circuit-of-Ireland which was Group 2.

[youngres]

Well said Peter.

Some very valid good points that helps explain the history and outcome of most Works cars - this to those who are prepared to listen and accept what has happened over what has been in the region of 50 years.

[Cooperman]

Can I welcome 'youngres' to our membership.

For those who do not know him, he is the 'Ex-Works & Special Tuning' Registrar of the Mini Cooper Register, so we are fortunate to have him with us.

I'm sure he will be able to answer a lot of technical questions about rally and race Minis and help those preparing cars for competition.

I'm sure I speak for all when I extend a very warm welcome to you, Robert, and a photo of your own 'ex-works' car would be good to see.

[youngres]

Thanks Peter for your kind welcome

 

To be correct I am the 'Ex-Works & Competition Car Registrar'

Happy to post a photo of BJB77B - if I could work out how to!

 

Robert

[mab01uk]

This link may help:-

Uploading Images onto TMF

http://www.theminifo...mages-onto-tmf/

[cian]

I've always thought where the parts used in the engine builds in the works cars back in the day comparable to the parts today?

[Cooperman]

The currently available cams are undoubtedly a bit better.

The original EN40B crank of the original 'S' is really unbeatable as it is so strong.

Pistons such as Karl Schmidt are better than were available in the mid-1960's.

The 'works' engines were very good though and Cliff Humphries who was I/C engine building certainly knew his stuff.

[cian]

To build an engine to be competitive and withstand a monte you had to know your stuff!

[Cooperman]

I recall the story about Timo Makinen whose works Mini engine had lost its water and overheated on a special stage, leading to it seizing up. The works engines were always painted green, but his had got so hot the paint had burned off and it was now brown.

He told the service crew, in his best 'Finglish', "Car not go, engine wrong colour"!

[cian]

Hahahaha!!!!