18 replies to this topic

[zero_wlv]

Hi everyone :)   as usual,  I haven't introduced myself yet because I've only got round to posting as soon as I've run into a problem 

 

The short story:

 

1.   Standard 1988 998cc Mini City,  mostly unmodified.

2.   Following a couple of incidences of the engine cutting out in very heavy rain,  I decided to buy an electronic ignition conversion kit.

3.   Bought  Aldon Ignitor for Lucas 59D4 distributor and fitted as per instructions.

4.   After fitting,  I checked the static timing by eye to make sure it wasn't far out.   It didn't appear to need any adjustment.

5.   The engine was difficult to start but started after about 10 seconds.

6.   Upon starting,  idling was rough,  which I assumed was down to the timing not being precise.    I stopped and started the engine a couple more times.

7.   I pulled off the drive to see how it ran under load and the engine began knocking very badly (presumably pre-ignition).    So I immediately reversed back onto the drive and turned the engine off.

8.   I examined the whole ignition system but couldn't find anything amiss - UNTIL

9.   I took the spark plugs out and they were VERY badly fouled with carbon.   One even had its electrode bent back  (see pictures).    The plugs were fairly new and were in good condition a couple of weeks back when I did a compression test.

10.    I removed the Aldon Ignitor kit,   and reinstalled the original Lucas 59D points  (which appear to be not that old).

11.    Fitted a fresh set of spark plugs.

12.    Double-checked the static timing,  which as expected,  appears to be fine.

13.    Tried to start   -  absolutely nothing,  except for a cranking starter motor!     Engine won't start at all!     (I've tried connecting up a fresh battery too - no difference)

 

The question is,  as I've put the engine back to how it was yesterday,   why will it not start?    What was wrong with the electronic ignition kit that it caused so much damage to the spark plugs in such a short space of time?    A timing issue,  or something more severe?   I'll be happy if someone can diagnose the problem well enough so I can get the car to start with manual points  -  I think I'll put the electronic conversion onto the back burner for the moment!

 

(I followed the instructions to the letter and have checked through them again,  and can't see anything I could have missed.

I'm not suspecting anything is wrong with the Ignitor kit,  as most people seem to fit it successfully.)  

 

See also the three pics I've attached.

 

I'd be very grateful for any help anyone can give  -  there seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum 

 

-------------------------------------

 

More details:

 

1988 Mini City with 1989 High Compression 998cc Metro engine.

The distributor fitted is a Lucas 59D 'blue' sliding points type.

The coil is a Ducellier ballast coil.   I've checked the primary resistance - it's around 1.7 ohms.

 

How I fitted the ignition kit:

 

1.  Remove distributor cap and remove rotor and points.

2.  Insert Aldon Ignitor plate with sensor module.

3.  Connect the existing black ground wire  (the one already inside the distributor)  underneath the screw which I used to secure the Aldon Ignitor kit.     The ground wire looks quite the worse for wear but I checked it carefully with a multimeter and it's grounding the Ignitor plate well    (I checked the resistance to the distributor body and even to the engine block - both good).

4.  Insert magnet sleeve on top of cam.

5.  Re-insert existing Lucas rotor on top of magnet sleeve.

6.  Check static timing by eye  -  I rotated the engine until the notch on the engine pulley was lined up with 8º advance on the 'zig-zag' timing marker.   At this point,  one of the magnets on the Ignitor sleeve was roughly midway on the sensor module  (as per instructions).     The rotor was pointing in the right direction for HT lead number 1.    As expected,  no turning of the distributor was necessary,  as the timing was already set correctly for when the manual points were in.

7.  Checked that the firing order (going anti-clockwise around distributor) was 1-3-4-2.

8.  Replaced distributor cap.

9.  Connected black Ignitor wire to negative terminal of coil.

10.   Connected red ignitor wire to the spare spade immediately by the white ignition wire on the fusebox.    (as per instructions - they recommend bypassing the ballast wire).

 

After that I started the engine  (with difficulty),   and the rest of the story is as detailed at the top of this post.  

 

 

 

 

I've checked that the coil is still operating - it is - the HT terminal still gives a current.

I've checked that the coil still has a primary resistance of around 1.5 ohms - it does.

I've checked that the ballast wire hasn't burned out - it's fine - it's reading around 1.6 ohms from the end to the fuse box.

I'm not really sure what else to check.

 

Attached Files

•  theminiforum 001.jpg   22.93K   26 downloads
•  theminiforum 002.jpg   61.59K   39 downloads
•  theminiforum 003.jpg   31.76K   22 downloads

[zero_wlv]

I realised if I'm asking for help I should really introduce the car too...

Attached Files

•  20160723_140841 800x450.jpg   75.29K   6 downloads
•  20160723_140819 800x450.jpg   92.32K   7 downloads

[nicklouse]

Sounds like you have not installed the fizzy correctly.

At a guess it is 180 degrees out. Well now looking at the pictures maybe not that far.

Check it again.

Edited by nicklouse, 04 September 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[zero_wlv]

I don't think it could be 180º out,   as I put a sticker on the top side of the distributor cap before I removed it first time round,  and I haven't removed the ignition leads.    When I reinstalled it,  I made sure the sticker was on the top side again.    

 

EDIT - I didn't actually remove the distributor at any time as the installation procedure doesn't require it   -   I just removed the cap,  installed the Ignitor kit and then put the cap back on again.

Edited by zero_wlv, 04 September 2016 - 07:13 PM.

[Steve-O 2014]

Don't these need to be used with 12v feed, not a ballast feed??

[Steve-O 2014]

Which also would require non ballast coil?

That's how I run mine and its great

[dyshipfakta]

Did you replace the coil too ? It would need replacing if going to 12v setup. Could explain your cack running with the ballast coil and your electronic setup. As to how your plugs go so stuffed up I don't know.

[zero_wlv]

I'm still using the original ballast coil at the moment  (a Ducellier ballast coil).   I've checked the current in the secondary winding and it seems to be working ok.

 

 

 

The instructions I had in the box state:

 

      "If your ignition system presently has a ballast resistor,  DO NOT remove it."

 

and later on:

 

      "For installations that use a primary ballast resistor,  it is preferable to connect the Ignitor red wire to the ignition switch side of the resistor rather than the positive terminal of the coil."

 

It then gives a diagram to illustrate this   (see attached pic).

 

This is exactly how I installed it:      black Ignitor wire to the -ve terminal of the ballast coil,   and red Ignitor wire to the 12V ignition switch spade on the fuse box  (the top left spade with the white wire).

I left the ballast coil and ballast wire exactly how they were previously.

 

I think the important thing for electronic ignitions is that the electronic module is fed with a guaranteed 12V,  which is why it should be connected directly to the ignition wire.   This is what I've done. 

 

_____________

 

 

( After some googling,  I found some very similar instructions for Pertronix Ignitor for the U.S. boat market which recommend replacing a ballast system with a standard 12V system  -  although these instructions also give the option of keeping the existing ballast system.    However,  I thought it best to follow the instructions for Aldon Ignitor that came in the box,   and I prefer to change one component at a time when possible,   for diagnostic reasons.     As it happens,  I WAS planning on converting to a standard 12V coil after getting the electronic ignition working,   as I've read a few horror stories about the ballast wire melting away in the front wiring loom    )

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  ignitor installation.png   14.39K   10 downloads

[Steve-O 2014]

Get rid of that ballast wire. When I removed it the wire around the wing area was melted exposing bare wire!!!

[zero_wlv]

Thanks for your suggestion Steve.   I've read so many bad things about ballast wires before,  and now you've said something similar it's convinced me to just get rid of it.  Tomorrow I'll be installing a standard 12V coil (standard Lucas DLB105) and bypassing the ballast wire.    I'll also install a new set of points/rotor/distributor cap as they're so cheap (all standard Lucas 59D).

 

A conventional ignition system really isn't very complicated so if the car won't start once I've replaced all that stuff,   there really won't be much left that could possibly be wrong!

[Steve-O 2014]

I'm guessing you purchased the negative earth kit and not positive earth kit?

[tiger99]

I don't think the change of ignition system damaged your spark plugs. Possibly just over-fuelling while you were trying to get it to run. Or another cause?

I would suggest that your timing is too far advanced. An electronic system tends to make the spark happen quicker than a traditional points and condenser system, and although the effect is small, it might just be enough to account for your problems if the timing was slightly too far advanced in the first place. Retarding it just a few degrees for now is likely to help getting it running again.

[zero_wlv]

Yeh,  I definitely bought the negative earth kit.

 

The good news is I've got the car up and running again with the standard Lucas points    .    I bought new points,  cap, rotor and HT leads,   and did the static timing again  -  which I discovered was much easier with conventional points as you can actually see the points breaking and contacting.    I only took it down the street and back as the engine's running a little rough and knocking,  so I'll have to get it timed properly with a strobe light before driving it properly.

 

None of this explains why my electronic ignition installation was such a failure.   I think tiger99 might be along the right lines - it must have been a timing problem  -  but it must have been severe to have caused so much damage to the plugs in such a short space of time.    It's strange,  because most instructions and blogs suggest that the timing will only be a little out after converting from points to electronic.    I've read quite a few posts from people who didn't have to adjust their timing at all,  and everything ran fine first time!     As I detailed above,  I was quite careful to sort out the static timing by aligning the sensor module correctly whilst the engine pulley was at 8º advance.

 

I'm a little reluctant to try installing the Ignitor again,  but I'll probably give it a go at the weekend.    I'm thinking about buying a strobe light first so I can sort out the timing accurately immediately,  and avoid destroying another set of plugs It's not so much the plugs I'm worried about,  as a set of 4 is quite cheap - I'm wondering if any other damage might be caused.    Hopefully the destroyed plugs were down to over-fuelling as tiger99 says,  and maybe predetonation as well.

[KernowCooper]

I can assure you the trip down the road with advanced timing and electronic trigger did not do damage to your plugs

[tiger99]

I agree, the plug damage is very odd. What would it take to do that? I only suggested excess fuel, in the absence of any other rational explanation.