80 replies to this topic

[mm man]

Will the Q only come into play if you are registering for the first time ?
Ie if your vehicle doesn’t have a reg now and you have just completed a build outside the 8 point rule

[mk1coopers]

https://www.gov.uk/v...tration-numbers

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval

If you have built outside the 8 point rule I would have thought you are going to have to go through one of the processes in the links above to get a registration

Edited by mk1coopers, 15 October 2017 - 07:40 PM.

[HUBBA.HUBBA]

How will the government let everybody know of the change

[mm man]

https://www.gov.uk/v...tration-numbershttps://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval
If you have built outside the 8 point rule I would have thought you are going to have to go through one of the processes in the links above to get a registration

What if you already have a reg number and the mods have been done for a years (even if the car has been sorn )are you going to be forced into re registering it ?
Or are you just going to get it mot’d as normal (declare it’s not historic )

[mk1coopers]

https://www.gov.uk/v...tration-numbershttps://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval
If you have built outside the 8 point rule I would have thought you are going to have to go through one of the processes in the links above to get a registration

What if you already have a reg number and the mods have been done for a years (even if the car has been sorn )are you going to be forced into re registering it ?
Or are you just going to get it mot’d as normal (declare it’s not historic )

It's going to depend on when (and what) was done, pre 1988 with proof, no problem, VHI and no MOT (if you choose not to) 1988 on and if you have cut the body / chassis it should (in theory) have been declared and gone through the appropriate system at the time, so yes you can continue to MOT (as some people with standard cars will) but you run the risk of the car being inspected ( this has been in place since 1988) if someone in authority see's or hears of the car

I can see a section being introduced to the MOT test that may include the Tester having to advise if he *thinks* the vehicle being presented has been modified

At the moment the criteria for classifying what is a VHI is still a draft document, let's hope some common sense prevails on certain aspects of it.

[Ethel]

Q plates are for vehicles of indeterminate age. Modified cars end up with one when so much has been changed they cease to be the vehicle the were registered as.

 

It  would be something of a dichotomy if you had to prove how ancient your modifications were in order to be trusted to keep your car roadworthy without an MoT.

 

There's a legal principal that laws can't be applied retrospectively, it's written in to the HRA. I can't see how they could ignore it over your vehicle mods while upholding it to exempt classic cars from rules regarding everything from seatbelts to emissions regulations. 

[Trissy B]

I doubt 'we' would need to prove anything, the onus would surely be on 'them' to disprove! Of course if you have a Honda Vtec in your mk1 Cooper S, you might have a hard time explaining to the chap from the DVLA that you carried out the work before 1988!!

[CityEPete]

I doubt 'we' would need to prove anything, the onus would surely be on 'them' to disprove! Of course if you have a Honda Vtec in your mk1 Cooper S, you might have a hard time explaining to the chap from the DVLA that you carried out the work before 1988!!

I've tried to point this out to people on here that don't like me flagging up ringers that say I don't know when it was 'reshelled', true but the Spi or even Mpi shell and normally every other part of the 'donor' car make it a decade after it was made illegal to use a second hand shell, lol.

[mab01uk]

From the latest FBHVC Newsletter Issue 6 - 2017

 

Roadworthiness Testing

"We would appear to be getting close to a conclusion on this knotty problem, which will we hope to be better and less onerous that many had feared.

Pressures of publication dates mean that we cannot yet tell you the definitive proposals, but we can with some confidence set out the broad principles. We have to give serious credit to the efforts the Department for Transport (DfT) have put in to understanding and addressing the practical issues regarding application of the new requirements.

The Government’s basic proposal on exemption is now law. The Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Amendment) Regulations (2017 No 850 for anyone interested) were laid before Parliament on 14 September 2017. Section 7 of the Regulations deals with the definition of vehicles of historic interest, which will be exempted from testing. The wording essentially replicates the provisions of Paragraph 3(7) of the EU Directive on periodic testing of vehicles of 3 April 2014, except that it uses a date of forty, not thirty years as the qualifying date. It will come into force on 20 May 2018.

It will be put into effect through a set of Guidelines, which is what we have been working on with the DFT to ensure that they are workable and practical.

The fundamental position in respect of historic vehicles will be that the current pre-1960 exemption from the MoT test, which applied to all vehicles without any examination of their underlying originality, will be withdrawn. It will be replaced by a new exemption, available to those vehicles more than forty years old (essentially the ‘historic’ class) which qualify as Vehicles of Historic Interest (VHIs), by reason of not having been subject to substantial change.

An important qualification will be that only changes carried out either after 1988 or less than thirty years ago, need to be considered. Currently DfT have proposed the fixed date of 1988, but our

proposal for a rolling thirty year date complies more closely with the Directive. This is not yet settled. So earlier modifications, however major, do not disqualify the vehicle from being a VHI.

Most discussions have centred around how the phrase ‘substantial change’ is to be defined and how it is to be established that a vehicle is a VHI.

We think we are moving towards a fairly generic description of a substantial change, which will have the effect of meaning most historic vehicles will qualify, which is the shared intent of ourselves and the DfT. We will set out the criteria in detail when they are finalised.

Many historic vehicles will be known by their keepers to be substantially as built and they will be able to be declared as VHIs with little or no problem. The Guidance will propose that anyone applying to have a vehicle recognised as a VHI who has any doubt should consult an expert for advice. The Federation has agreed to be the custodian of an approved list of experts and we will be working to create a fair and equitable method of accession of experts onto the list.

Roadworthiness Testing We are aware that many people have been confused by the potential use of existing DVLA rules, which is not now going to happen, into thinking this change relates to registration. May I emphasise most strongly that it does not. This is not only our view but is shared within DfT and DVLA. The worst thing that can happen to a historic vehicle which does not qualify as a VHI is that it has to undergo an MoT.

We also think we are close to agreeing a fairly simple process which will occur at the time of re-licensing in each year. It does have to be annual because a vehicle could have been changed during the previous year. We are arguing strongly for it to be simple, so that those owners of historic vehicles who are quite happy to continue with an MoT test, and we know there are many, are not required to go through the hassle of deciding whether they can declare whether or not their vehicle is a VHI.

It is important to state that no actual monitoring is proposed of declarations made. This is entirely a self-assessment process.

There are some issues not quite settled at the time of writing, though we are hopeful they mostly will be.

Probably most important is the applicability of these rules from the outset to motorcycles, whereas the Directive does not expect them to be applied till 1 January 2022. One can understand the position of Government, which is that as the UK has a perfectly sound system of motorcycle MoT testing, which is essentially accepted by the whole community, there seems no justification for not moving forward with motorcycles at the same time as cars, vans, lorries and buses. Our view has been that the motorcycling community, especially the historic motorcycling community, has not expected to be affected till 2022 and thought there was time to sort out any motorcycle specific issues before then. We will have to see the outcome of this discussion.

We are still working on reclaiming the complete exemption for goods vehicles built before 1940, which has been in place ever since the introduction of testing for goods vehicles, and have expressed the view that no vehicle should be required to be tested if the facilities and skills required properly to test it do not exist.

Finally, some readers will ask why this is all happening when the UK is in the course of leaving the EU and even if it is, does it matter in the long term? Well, firstly, we have not yet left, and it is settled Government policy that while we are members we will ensure all of our legislation complies with EU laws. Secondly, it is the settled intention of the Government that, upon leaving, all EU mandated laws will pass unchanged into the various laws of the countries of the UK. Thereafter normal UK legal processes will be applied to establish which of these laws require changing and if so, how. It is only realistic to suggest that this particular aspect of law is unlikely to be a high priority for change, so what is settled now is likely to be of long-term effect.

It is to be hoped we can provide a clear statement of the settled position, including the detail of the final VHI criteria, in the first edition of the Newsletter in 2018. This will of course just predate the introduction of the new regime in May 2018."

http://fbhvc.co.uk/m...letter-archive/

Edited by mab01uk, 13 December 2017 - 11:50 PM.

[DomCr250]

And this looks like what they are suggesting

 

Vehicles of Historical Interest

VHI - Substantial Change Draft Guidance

Vehicles of Historical Interest (VHI): “Substantial Change” Draft Guidance 

Most vehicles first registered over 40 years ago will as of 20 May 2018 be exempt from periodic testing, unless they have been substantially changed (If the type of vehicle is still in production, it is not exempt from periodic testing). 

Public Service Vehicles (PSVs) with 12 or more seats and large goods vehicles (i.e. goods vehicles with a maximum laden weight of more than 3.5 tonnes) will not be subject to a general exemption from periodic testing at 40 years and will be within the testing regime. 

The criteria for substantial change 

A vehicle will be considered to have been substantially changed (and hence not to have been historically preserved or maintained in its original state and to have undergone substantial changes in the technical characteristics of its main components) if it meets one of the following criteria. Such vehicles will not be considered of historical interest and will be continue to be subject to vehicle testing. 

Criterion 1

If a vehicle has a power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988. 

Criterion 2

If a vehicle: 

 

• has been issued with a registration number with a ‘Q’ prefix; or 
• is a kit car assembled from components from different makes and model of vehicle; or 
• is a reconstructed classic vehicle as defined by DVLA guidance; or 
• is a kit conversion, where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle, or old parts are added to a kit of a manufactured body, chassis or monocoque bodyshell changing the general appearance of the vehicle. 

 

While reconstructed classic vehicles and kit conversions can have age-related registration numbers that are more than forty years old, they are not VHIs. Radically altered vehicles should have registration plates with a “Q” prefix, but if a keeper considers they have such a vehicle with an original registration plate they should either test it or establish whether it is a radically altered vehicle. 

There are existing DVLA processes for registering reconstructed classic vehicles, kit conversions, and radically altered vehicles with the latter making use of the 8 point rule. (https://www.gov.uk/v...le-registration). 

If the keeper of a vehicle of more than forty years old is uncertain about whether the vehicle meets either of the two criteria, then they should seek professional advice. For example, the advice of a qualified mechanic or a historical vehicle expert. 

[DomCr250]

 

And this looks like what they are suggesting

 

Vehicles of Historical Interest

VHI - Substantial Change Draft Guidance

Vehicles of Historical Interest (VHI): “Substantial Change” Draft Guidance 

Most vehicles first registered over 40 years ago will as of 20 May 2018 be exempt from periodic testing, unless they have been substantially changed (If the type of vehicle is still in production, it is not exempt from periodic testing). 

Public Service Vehicles (PSVs) with 12 or more seats and large goods vehicles (i.e. goods vehicles with a maximum laden weight of more than 3.5 tonnes) will not be subject to a general exemption from periodic testing at 40 years and will be within the testing regime. 

The criteria for substantial change 

A vehicle will be considered to have been substantially changed (and hence not to have been historically preserved or maintained in its original state and to have undergone substantial changes in the technical characteristics of its main components) if it meets one of the following criteria. Such vehicles will not be considered of historical interest and will be continue to be subject to vehicle testing. 

Criterion 1

If a vehicle has a power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988. 

Criterion 2

If a vehicle: 

 

• has been issued with a registration number with a ‘Q’ prefix; or 
• is a kit car assembled from components from different makes and model of vehicle; or 
• is a reconstructed classic vehicle as defined by DVLA guidance; or 
• is a kit conversion, where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle, or old parts are added to a kit of a manufactured body, chassis or monocoque bodyshell changing the general appearance of the vehicle. 

 

While reconstructed classic vehicles and kit conversions can have age-related registration numbers that are more than forty years old, they are not VHIs. Radically altered vehicles should have registration plates with a “Q” prefix, but if a keeper considers they have such a vehicle with an original registration plate they should either test it or establish whether it is a radically altered vehicle. 

There are existing DVLA processes for registering reconstructed classic vehicles, kit conversions, and radically altered vehicles with the latter making use of the 8 point rule. (https://www.gov.uk/v...le-registration). 

If the keeper of a vehicle of more than forty years old is uncertain about whether the vehicle meets either of the two criteria, then they should seek professional advice. For example, the advice of a qualified mechanic or a historical vehicle expert. 

 

 

And if thats true then lots of A Series that have been tuned will not be a VHI and need a MOT always.  I suppose if you claimed the ERA's were mini's then the maximum power at the 15% rule would be 94Hp x 15%, so that is 108Hp.  Not just the hybrid mini's anymore is it?

Edited by DomCr250, 14 December 2017 - 03:10 PM.

[paulrockliffe]

At least that cover off my concerns around my Minus that is correctly registered, but was allowed to retain it's '69 registration.

[mm man]

At least that cover off my concerns around my Minus that is correctly registered, but was allowed to retain it's '69 registration.

Will still need an mot but can keep your plate is that correct ? if so I am in the same boat

[1984mini25]

 

Criterion 1

If a vehicle has a power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988. 

 

Just by fitting a proper stage one kit (and set up correctly afterwards) you'd be 5% over.

[Ethel]

"unless such a modification took place before 1988" - indefinite article.

 

That means as long somebody did to their Mini what you've done to your Mini,before 1988, you're ok.  Hoping we don't need a court to decide upon some basic English.

 

Though '88 isn't going to make sense for long with a 40yr rolling exemption. Is there any logic in the year, or is it an oversight from the original 30yr proposal?