20 replies to this topic

[PACINO]

Hi! The post, although long, is magnificently explained, providing all the necessary information ... even videos.

As you have been told, I would start with:
- Make a valve adjustment.
- Check that the breather holes of the motor on the clutch side, distribution cover are not blocked. A friend has got a similar engine (998 a +) and had the small "hole" in the plastic box where the air filter is closed. Here is where you connect the pipe from Carter breather. I suppose it was a defect, but it made the engine not breathe well and oil sweated from other places. Check it!
- The spark plugs come out black. You already know that it is a matter of regulating the mixture. It is important that the air filter is clean and in good condition.
- The crankshaft pulley (Damper) does not seem to me to oscillate much. The pulley is two circular metal parts joined by a rubber washer that acts as a vibration absorber. My pulley broke because that rubber was in bad shape, but yours seems to be fine. The alternator belt rotates at the correct speed and without alterations.
- Another thing that will help the engine to run smoother and the rocker arms to be less noisy is to use a good oil. Millers Classic or Comma rich in Zinc helps prevent wear between metal parts.

Regards, Luis

[lordcakes]

For now I would focus on your timing chain. Carry on as planned fitting your new chain and tensioner. Once fitted you can check if the chain fouls the cover; if so then that is another issue and you need to relieve where the cover is catching or get a new cover. Consider replacing the seal on the cover as well and align it (there is some good advice on here about that).

Your starter motor issue has 2 points you have highlighted, an overrun noise and filings (ignore the oil for now). Probably indicates that the starter isn't disengaging properly and is grinding on
the flywheel. You may be able to clean it up or get a new one and try that. In terms of the oil, keep any eye on it once you have sorted the starter to see if it is getting worse or you could whip the wok off to see if there is an oil leak or if this is just gunk that exists that is a product of the general muck generated by the engine/clutch in that area (my wok was thick with a greasy black goo but I have no oil leak).

You have already started this work so don't write the engine off just yet. You might as well finish the planned work on your 1990 engine and see where you stand afterwards. If nothing else it will give you a running engine so you can enjoy your car while you get you 88 engine refurbished in slow time.

[Norris73]

Playing Devils advocate here as its a while since I have had a look at one.. is that oil thrower on the correct way round?

 

I recall they were stamped F, which should face the Rad... (If my memory is correct)

 

The chain doesnt look terrible to me either

Good spot! Confirmed this afternoon that the oil slinger plate is the wrong way around, there are witness marks on both it and the timing cover! Pictures to follow in next post.

[Norris73]

Hi! The post, although long, is magnificently explained, providing all the necessary information ... even videos.

As you have been told, I would start with:
- Make a valve adjustment.
- Check that the breather holes of the motor on the clutch side, distribution cover are not blocked. A friend has got a similar engine (998 a +) and had the small "hole" in the plastic box where the air filter is closed. Here is where you connect the pipe from Carter breather. I suppose it was a defect, but it made the engine not breathe well and oil sweated from other places. Check it!
- The spark plugs come out black. You already know that it is a matter of regulating the mixture. It is important that the air filter is clean and in good condition.
- The crankshaft pulley (Damper) does not seem to me to oscillate much. The pulley is two circular metal parts joined by a rubber washer that acts as a vibration absorber. My pulley broke because that rubber was in bad shape, but yours seems to be fine. The alternator belt rotates at the correct speed and without alterations.
- Another thing that will help the engine to run smoother and the rocker arms to be less noisy is to use a good oil. Millers Classic or Comma rich in Zinc helps prevent wear between metal parts.

Regards, Luis

 

Trying to be a thorough as possible, to help folk with diagnoses, with half a thought that this may also help people in the future with similar issues. Amongst this thread maybe a golden nugget of information.

I really like the idea of breather issues. This rings true to me, as when I picked up the engine it was caked in oil and grease, one of the worst I have seen. I have had a look this afternoon and I can see oil and muck appearing bellow the tappet chest covers, the gasket were replaced with the rubber type, even the little rubber bushes under the tappet chest bolts were replaced. This is a 998 so as far as im aware only have the breather attached to the tappet chest cover (canister type), where do you mean by the breather holes on the clutch side.
I plan on removing the tappet chest breather and blowing it through with some brake cleaner, as this was not checked before fitting the engine.
 

For now I would focus on your timing chain. Carry on as planned fitting your new chain and tensioner. Once fitted you can check if the chain fouls the cover; if so then that is another issue and you need to relieve where the cover is catching or get a new cover. Consider replacing the seal on the cover as well and align it (there is some good advice on here about that).

Your starter motor issue has 2 points you have highlighted, an overrun noise and filings (ignore the oil for now). Probably indicates that the starter isn't disengaging properly and is grinding on
the flywheel. You may be able to clean it up or get a new one and try that. In terms of the oil, keep any eye on it once you have sorted the starter to see if it is getting worse or you could whip the wok off to see if there is an oil leak or if this is just gunk that exists that is a product of the general muck generated by the engine/clutch in that area (my wok was thick with a greasy black goo but I have no oil leak).

You have already started this work so don't write the engine off just yet. You might as well finish the planned work on your 1990 engine and see where you stand afterwards. If nothing else it will give you a running engine so you can enjoy your car while you get you 88 engine refurbished in slow time.

Thanks for the pointers, and the word in my ear to carry on as planned!

 

Made some very pleasing progress this afternoon.

 

I plan on getting hold of another starter. The one on the car, came from the 1988 engine so has been on the car the whole time I have had it (over a decade) and has a sticker on it saying its a refurbished starter, dated 1989!

 

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Update - New timing chain is on, new tensioner, tensioner pin and camshaft lock tab fitted. Everything aligned and went together really well. Have turned the engine over by hand several times to confirm the dots align perfectly.

 

Oil slinger/thrower was found to have been fitted the wrong way around, by whoever worked on this last time, im fairly certain the chain is not the original and has been worked on previously sometime in the engines 67,000 mile past. Oil slinger/thrower has a wear ridge in it, and corresponding marks on timing chain cover due to the incorrect previous fitting. Hopefully I can re use the oil slinger/thrower as don’t have a spare.

 

Wear was found on the tensioner and the tensioner pin was also very worn causing side to side slop on the tensioner. The tensioner metal bracket also has a wear mark in it, but have not replaced as seems serviceable still and do not have spare.

 

I am very happy with the lack of slack in the new chain compared to the old one, video below, looking better?

 

 

I’m going to re-use the timing chain cover, I hadn’t realised that this part is no longer available, and seems not easy to come by second hand either! I’m confident enough material remains even where it has worn a bit. I’m going to clean this up and give it a quick coat of satin black and refit using a new crank oil seal and cover gasket.

 

Not going to start the engine until I have a replacement starter. Should have everything back together in the next week or so and post the results! (I still plan on also replacing the rocker shaft and inspecting the rockers too).

 

Thanks everyone

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Edited by Norris73, 25 February 2021 - 09:06 PM.

[Norris73]

The Damper you have is fine, but there's a plate that's riveted to the inboard side of it, in which the rivets have come loose and it's that plate you can see wobbling about. The plate isn't needed (it was for some kind of LED Timing light), so when you get to it, drill the rivets out and toss the plate.

 

This maybe the source of the noise at that end of the engine, there'll likely be some witness marks on the plate and / or the timing cover if it is.

If not, then as others have said here, I'd be looking at the Timing Chain and Sprockets. The sound is similar to fitting a Duplex set up and not knocking the dimple in the cover out.

 

With the high Idle, disconnect the throttle cable and see how it is (blip the throttle a couple of times by hand). If it's fine, then there's likely and issue with the Cable or Pedal. If it remains high, then it could be the butterfly in the Carb hasn't been centred properly or it, along with the shaft could be worn.

Thanks for the tips. I checked the damper/pulley when refitting, the inner plate was secure and overall seemed in really good condition. I did straighten a slight buckle in the inner plate with some mole grips, it now looks by eye to be running true when the engine is running. I did check my old 1988 engine to see what pulley that had installed and that had a solid type pulley with the inner plate riveted to it. I wonder what the cross over year was, or the garage I purchased the car from may have switched to the solid type pulley for reliability + easy fitment (the crank bolt is flush not recessed as the dampened type pulley)

 

Have had a play with the throttle cable briefly today, disconnecting the throttle cable the car seemed to idle much lower and almost stalled at one point, once I reconnected the cable the engine revs increased again. Maybe im not adjusting the cable correctly or the cable is sticky?

 

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Maybe I should have made this into a project thread, making a £100 secondhand engine work!

 

Update - Timing chain replacement complete. Tappet chest breather pulled and cleaned out with engine degreaser (I can convince myself it was partially blocked), certainly you can blow through this much easier after cleaning. Couple of videos of engine running below. First I started the car for literally 10 seconds with no rad etc, no rattle! so I was happy to re assemble. Second video shows engine running with all accessories re attached. Overall very happy and feel like huge progress has been made, still got a slight tappy noise there, but not like a tractor coming at you as it was before. Slight oscillation from the airbox flap/bimetallic strip you will see me silence this in the second video. Think perhaps Im being overly fussy!

 

 

Next steps is a good service oil (VR1 20w/50) + filter, rockershaft, adjust/ correct idle speed and have a replacement starter on its way (not new as have read horror stories about current production items on here)

 

The starter noise after start up made me worried that the flywheel could have been spinning on crank nose, so did a measurement of back of flywheel ring gear to end of starter aperture, and got 33mm approx. 1.25" on both engines so confident everything is sitting right. Also checked old engine for greasy black deposits in clutch housing, identical deposits were found, so not so overly concerned about these, will monitor.

Edited by Norris73, 28 February 2021 - 08:08 PM.

[PACINO]

Norris73: "where do you mean by the breather holes on the clutch side?"





I mean you check the ventilation of all the breather points that your engine has.
- Clutch side
- Timing cover side
* Even if the small hole in the plastic air filter housing is really open (red arrow), 'only' if you have any hose connected there for example the gasses hose that comes out of the clutch side or other.
As I was telling you the other day, my friend had that hole in the filter box closed. The best way to ensure is using a screwdriver.

Regards, Luis

Edited by PACINO, 02 March 2021 - 02:47 AM.