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Gear Selection Conundrum


Best Answer GraemeC , 23 February 2021 - 09:02 AM

 

Ok. Auto subframe did not have the engine moved forward. That happened with the introduction of the HIF carbertors.

 

yes a rod type change will not fit in the hole for a remote change without cutting the tunnel. Has yours been modified so everything is aligned correctly? A bit of wear in the old gearbox may have hidden issues that are now shown with the new set up. But it would have to be very out....

 

Interesting about the engine not being further forward. I'm not aware that the previous tunnel (new floor) had been modified, will scrutinise the teardown pictures again.  What do you mean modified so everything aligns correctly?

 

 

Nick is correct about the engine placement and that if you use the standard shifter rods the rod change mechanism doesn't usually fit well in the existing hole.

 

However, you can use whatever linkage rods work best for you, just position the rear support accordingly.  I have previously used Metro linkage rods in an autotest car which are quite a bit longer, but they put the gearstick in a better position for me (although would've been a pain with the handbrake if I hadn't been running a vertical hydraulic one in that particular car).  However you must use them as a 'pair'.

 

The longer shift rod is shown on this diagram but both lengths looks to be NLA.  However it is just 1/2" diameter rod with a hole at each end, so easy enough to make.

http://www.minispare...ism.aspx?1~4~44

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#1 humph

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 10:32 PM

I’m in the middle of rebuilding my project and have an issue that has me stumped. The engine and rod change gearbox are in and filled with oil. The clutch system is installed, filled, bled, and adjusted, and pedal seems good. I can select all forward gears, but not reverse. The gear lever will lift, but will not move over to the right to select reverse. I’m not sure if it’s the gate stopping it or the gearbox.

I’ve removed the roll pins and disconnected the rods. When disconnected the gearbox will select reverse using mole grips, and the gearstick will move freely between the gears, but once connected no reverse.

Here is the spec I’m working with, sorry my car is a bit of a mongrel in this departement:
Body - 1969 Riley Elf, remote change round tunnel
Engine - A plus fully rebuilt (professionally)
Gearbox - fully rebuilt Rod change manual, original to the engine as far as I’m aware
Front subframe - twin bolt dry, but auto. Engine has been fitted using the auto to manual kits you can buy

Important to note that this set up worked fine before the car came apart, only difference was the front subframe which was a single bolt manual one before it came apart.

So as the subframe is an auto my understanding is that I needed a longer gearbox steady rod to make up for the engine sitting further forward. This seemed to be the case as with the original steady the gear lever wasn’t in the hole in the tunnel.

I used this steady

http://www.minispare...|Back to search

I maintained the original shorter top steady. I did fit the longer one off an auto to start but it put the gearbox casing within 4-5mm of the subframe which didn’t seem right.

http://www.minispare...|Back to search

And this conversion kit to fit the rod change in the round tunnel

https://www.minispar...conversion.aspx

Finally worth mentioning that I haven’t had this engine running yet as I have no fuel system installed. Don’t want to get too far down the line with engine ancilliaries in case the thing has to come back out.

So I’m confused. It seems odd that it just won’t work when it’s all connected up together. As I say it seems to be the twist motion of moving the lever over to the right that something doesn’t like. I’m wondering if somewhere there’s and angle issue and things are not being pushed/pulled as they should be. Anyone got any ideas?

Edited by humph, 22 February 2021 - 10:36 PM.


#2 KTS

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 10:37 PM

..is the plate on the bottom of the selector housing the right way round?

#3 humph

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 10:48 PM

..is the plate on the bottom of the selector housing the right way round?


Yes as far as I’m aware. Selecting reverse with the selector disconnected from the car works as it should. My understanding is that if it was on the wrong way I’d struggle with first and second. When i’m back on the car at the weekend i may whip it off and spin it around, just to eliminate it.

Edited by humph, 22 February 2021 - 10:50 PM.


#4 nicklouse

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 11:59 PM

Ok. Auto subframe did not have the engine moved forward. That happened with the introduction of the HIF carbertors.

 

yes a rod type change will not fit in the hole for a remote change without cutting the tunnel. Has yours been modified so everything is aligned correctly? A bit of wear in the old gearbox may have hidden issues that are now shown with the new set up. But it would have to be very out....



#5 Spider

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 07:12 AM

 

..is the plate on the bottom of the selector housing the right way round?


Yes as far as I’m aware. Selecting reverse with the selector disconnected from the car works as it should. My understanding is that if it was on the wrong way I’d struggle with first and second. When i’m back on the car at the weekend i may whip it off and spin it around, just to eliminate it.

 

 

Try it with the Plate off.

If the Plate has been bent in (even a small amount) or the Gearsick itself has dropped, it will make it difficult or impossible to get in to Reverse.

The other item to check is the Reverse Light Switch, if that's been screwed in too far, you won't get Reverse.



#6 GraemeC

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 07:37 AM

You’ve changed the gear mechanism steady rod, but have you also changed the shift rod? They are a ‘pair’ in that they were both longer. It could be that the gearstick is now not quite able to throw the selector far enough, especially with no synchros to help. In fact it may not be selecting 3rd & 4th fully and potentially overthrowing 1st & 2nd.

 

Second thoughts..... that wouldn’t stop the lever going to the right - that’s more likely to be 5e gate or reverse switch. Unless the shorter rod is making/allowing the 1/2 & 3/4 bell cranks sit slightly out of line of the reverse one.


Edited by GraemeC, 23 February 2021 - 07:42 AM.


#7 humph

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:52 AM

Ok. Auto subframe did not have the engine moved forward. That happened with the introduction of the HIF carbertors.

 

yes a rod type change will not fit in the hole for a remote change without cutting the tunnel. Has yours been modified so everything is aligned correctly? A bit of wear in the old gearbox may have hidden issues that are now shown with the new set up. But it would have to be very out....

 

Interesting about the engine not being further forward. I'm not aware that the previous tunnel (new floor) had been modified, will scrutinise the teardown pictures again.  What do you mean modified so everything aligns correctly?

 

This will explain why the longer top steady made the engine angle look wrong and the gearbox casing too close to the subframe. May be interesting when I get my HIF38 fitted though.

 

 

 

..is the plate on the bottom of the selector housing the right way round?


Yes as far as I’m aware. Selecting reverse with the selector disconnected from the car works as it should. My understanding is that if it was on the wrong way I’d struggle with first and second. When i’m back on the car at the weekend i may whip it off and spin it around, just to eliminate it.

 

 

Try it with the Plate off.

If the Plate has been bent in (even a small amount) or the Gearsick itself has dropped, it will make it difficult or impossible to get in to Reverse.

The other item to check is the Reverse Light Switch, if that's been screwed in too far, you won't get Reverse.

 

 

Hadn't thought of this, will give it a go at the weekend, thanks. There is no reverse light switch fitted, hole has a plastic cap on it from memory.

 

You’ve changed the gear mechanism steady rod, but have you also changed the shift rod? They are a ‘pair’ in that they were both longer. It could be that the gearstick is now not quite able to throw the selector far enough, especially with no synchros to help. In fact it may not be selecting 3rd & 4th fully and potentially overthrowing 1st & 2nd.

 

Second thoughts..... that wouldn’t stop the lever going to the right - that’s more likely to be 5e gate or reverse switch. Unless the shorter rod is making/allowing the 1/2 & 3/4 bell cranks sit slightly out of line of the reverse one.

 

Will look into the extended shift rod, I've not found any reference to this, but it did cross my mind.

 

I'm not going to mess until my quick release coupler turns up, I've had the roll pins in and out a couple of times now, don't to cause any damage.

 

Thanks for the ideas guys, keep them coming.


Edited by humph, 23 February 2021 - 04:07 PM.


#8 GraemeC

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:02 AM   Best Answer

 

Ok. Auto subframe did not have the engine moved forward. That happened with the introduction of the HIF carbertors.

 

yes a rod type change will not fit in the hole for a remote change without cutting the tunnel. Has yours been modified so everything is aligned correctly? A bit of wear in the old gearbox may have hidden issues that are now shown with the new set up. But it would have to be very out....

 

Interesting about the engine not being further forward. I'm not aware that the previous tunnel (new floor) had been modified, will scrutinise the teardown pictures again.  What do you mean modified so everything aligns correctly?

 

 

Nick is correct about the engine placement and that if you use the standard shifter rods the rod change mechanism doesn't usually fit well in the existing hole.

 

However, you can use whatever linkage rods work best for you, just position the rear support accordingly.  I have previously used Metro linkage rods in an autotest car which are quite a bit longer, but they put the gearstick in a better position for me (although would've been a pain with the handbrake if I hadn't been running a vertical hydraulic one in that particular car).  However you must use them as a 'pair'.

 

The longer shift rod is shown on this diagram but both lengths looks to be NLA.  However it is just 1/2" diameter rod with a hole at each end, so easy enough to make.

http://www.minispare...ism.aspx?1~4~44


Edited by GraemeC, 23 February 2021 - 09:25 AM.


#9 humph

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Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:22 AM

 

 

Ok. Auto subframe did not have the engine moved forward. That happened with the introduction of the HIF carbertors.

 

yes a rod type change will not fit in the hole for a remote change without cutting the tunnel. Has yours been modified so everything is aligned correctly? A bit of wear in the old gearbox may have hidden issues that are now shown with the new set up. But it would have to be very out....

 

Interesting about the engine not being further forward. I'm not aware that the previous tunnel (new floor) had been modified, will scrutinise the teardown pictures again.  What do you mean modified so everything aligns correctly?

 

 

Nick is correct about the engine placement and that if you use the standard shifter rods the rod change mechanism doesn't usually fit well in the existing hole.

 

However, you can use whatever linkage rods work best for you, just position the rear support accordingly.  I have previously used Metro linkage rods in an autotest car which are quite a bit longer, but  they out the gearstick in a better position for me (although would've been a pain with the handbrake if I hadn't been running a vertical hydraulic one in that particular car).  However you must use them as a 'pair'.

 

The longer shift rod is shown on this diagram but both lengths looks to be NLA.  However it is just 1/2" diameter rod with a hole at each end, so easy enough to make.

http://www.minispare...ism.aspx?1~4~44

 

 

Thanks Greame.  As you say the shorter rods meant the mounting bolts for the gear selector were 1/2" too far forward, so the longer gearbox steady fixes this so they site quite nicely between the tunnel hole and the crossmember.. The lever itself does sit right at the front of the tunnel hole, but so be it. I've tracked down a longer selector rod shown as in stock online, so will buy one as it sounds as though I need one, even if it doesn't solve the problem in hand. Thanks.

 

Minisport have the longer 1275 rods in NOS.


Edited by humph, 23 February 2021 - 11:21 AM.


#10 humph

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:04 PM

My new longer rod arrived today. Whilst dismantling and extracting the old rod I came across a Little nylon/plastic ring on the rod, inside the housing. I don’t know where this belongs. It seems too big to have come out of the Rod hole in the housing Or the rod eye, i conuldn’t get it in either hole, but fits well but not tight on the rod itself. Any ideas where it should go? Does it act as a seal in the housing? Or does it just sit on the rod cushioning the metal on metal of the eye on the housing as you go into 2nd/4th? If the latter there doesn’t seem to be a twin for 1st/2nd on the other rod at the back, or anywhere for that matter.

This little ring doesn’t appear on any of the exploded diagrams.

Edited by humph, 24 February 2021 - 11:24 PM.


#11 nicklouse

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:14 PM

My new longer rod arrived today. Whilst dismantling and extracting the old rod I came across a Little nylon/plastic ring on the rod, inside the housing. I don’t know Where this belongs. It seems to big to have come out of the Rod hole in the housing Or the rod eye, i conuldn’t get it in either hole, but fits well but not tight on the rod itself. Any ideas where it should go? Does it act as a seal in the housing? Or does it just sit on the rod cushioning the metal on metal of the eye on the housing as you go into 2nd/4th? If the latter there doesn’t seem to be a twin for 1st/2nd on the other rod at the back, or anywhere for that matter.

This little ring doesn’t appear on any of the exploded diagrams.

Got ant pictures? Can’t say I remember anything in there normally.



#12 GraemeC

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:20 PM

I’ve read about these recently - I think Spider knows more.

IIRC it was a buffer to prevent overthrowing the synchro on later boxes



#13 KTS

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 10:03 PM

My new longer rod arrived today. Whilst dismantling and extracting the old rod I came across a Little nylon/plastic ring on the rod, inside the housing. I don’t know Where this belongs. It seems to big to have come out of the Rod hole in the housing Or the rod eye, i conuldn’t get it in either hole, but fits well but not tight on the rod itself. Any ideas where it should go? Does it act as a seal in the housing? Or does it just sit on the rod cushioning the metal on metal of the eye on the housing as you go into 2nd/4th? If the latter there doesn’t seem to be a twin for 1st/2nd on the other rod at the back, or anywhere for that matter.

This little ring doesn’t appear on any of the exploded diagrams.

Your hunch is correct - fits on the selector rod between the eye and the front of the housing.
 

edit :  this is the post i had to refer to when i was rebuilding my selector

https://www.theminif...09#entry3580390


Edited by KTS, 24 February 2021 - 10:23 PM.


#14 humph

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 10:30 PM

Thanks guys. This is the little blighter.

50977543651_bc111a6716_k.jpg[/url]

#15 nicklouse

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 10:58 PM

Nice. That explains what the thing in my parts box is. Had it for years and never know what it was. Must have come in a gasket kit or some such,






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