44 replies to this topic

[cal844]

If its an auto transmission you need 10w40 MA2 spec oil

[nicklouse]

 

 

Thank you all for the advice. I’m going with a 20w50 during the summer, and will go with a 15w40 over winter, though it will barely see any miles once it reaches under 40F, and stored in my garage.

40F is nothing you could happily run 20w50 or 15w40 all year round.


but you have not confirmed that it is a Manual version.

Auto trans

 

Then you need 10-40 MA2 spec oil. Don’t even go to the 20-50 totally unsuitable.

[JDMRoverMini]

If its an auto transmission you need 10w40 MA2 spec oil

Should I stay conventional, or synthetic? What about the high zinc content I’ve read about?

[bluedragon]

IMHO, go synthetic of the proper viscosity and standard. Most people will say not to use synthetic, but cannot offer any scientific evidence to support this view - only anecdotal. Unless they can support their negative views with oil analysis data and back to back trials, they can't know that synthetic oil was the cause of a particular problem.

 

Zinc additives are massively overrated. They are only really useful for break-in of new components, and racing/heavy duty use (long periods of operation at full throttle and high rpms.) Zinc is like a vitamin for a human - the lubricated parts use what they need, and excess is unused. Huge amounts can actually be harmful to a motor.

 

Heavy duty operation "consumes" more of the zinc additive like heavy exertion might consume minerals in a human body, so having extra in those scenarios may be needed to compensate for consumption. High levels can speed buildup where there is no zinc layer (because the engine is brand new) so that's why it can help for running in purposes.

 

Read this from a tribologist who is also a Mini owner. It's based on science, not tradition ("My grandfather's mechanic's mechanic always said not to use synthetic on a Mini...")

 

https://www.widman.b...ic-mini-oil.pdf

 

 

Dave

Edited by bluedragon, 16 June 2021 - 11:51 PM.

[Miki Leyland]

IMHO, go synthetic of the proper viscosity and standard. Most people will say not to use synthetic, but cannot offer any scientific evidence to support this view - only anecdotal. Unless they can support their negative views with oil analysis data and back to back trials, they can't know that synthetic oil was the cause of a particular problem.

 

Zinc additives are massively overrated. They are only really useful for break-in of new components, and racing/heavy duty use (long periods of operation at full throttle and high rpms.) Zinc is like a vitamin for a human - the lubricated parts use what they need, and excess is unused. Huge amounts can actually be harmful to a motor.

 

Heavy duty operation "consumes" more of the zinc additive like heavy exertion might consume minerals in a human body, so having extra in those scenarios may be needed to compensate for consumption. High levels can speed buildup where there is no zinc layer (because the engine is brand new) so that's why it can help for running in purposes.

 

Read this from a tribologist who is also a Mini owner. It's based on science, not tradition ("My grandfather's mechanic's mechanic always said not to use synthetic on a Mini...")

 

https://www.widman.b...ic-mini-oil.pdf

 

 

Dave

 

You couldn't believe how easy is to own a Mini and to spread articles on pdf nowadays, sustained on no more proof, evidence nor laboratory data than the opposite theory...

 

Synthetic oil lubricates "so well" than it is sometimes problematic with gear synchros to engage properly.

 

I would stick to your grandfather's mechanic when it's about Minis ;)
 

Edited by Miki Leyland, 17 June 2021 - 08:56 AM.

[cal844]

IMHO, go synthetic of the proper viscosity and standard. Most people will say not to use synthetic, but cannot offer any scientific evidence to support this view - only anecdotal. Unless they can support their negative views with oil analysis data and back to back trials, they can't know that synthetic oil was the cause of a particular problem.

Zinc additives are massively overrated. They are only really useful for break-in of new components, and racing/heavy duty use (long periods of operation at full throttle and high rpms.) Zinc is like a vitamin for a human - the lubricated parts use what they need, and excess is unused. Huge amounts can actually be harmful to a motor.

Heavy duty operation "consumes" more of the zinc additive like heavy exertion might consume minerals in a human body, so having extra in those scenarios may be needed to compensate for consumption. High levels can speed buildup where there is no zinc layer (because the engine is brand new) so that's why it can help for running in purposes.

Read this from a tribologist who is also a Mini owner. It's based on science, not tradition ("My grandfather's mechanic's mechanic always said not to use synthetic on a Mini...")

https://www.widman.b...ic-mini-oil.pdf


Dave

You couldn't believe how easy is to own a Mini and to spread articles on pdf nowadays, sustained on no more proof, evidence nor laboratory data than the opposite theory...

Synthetic oil lubricates "so well" than it is sometimes problematic with gear synchros to engage properly.

I would stick to your grandfather's mechanic when it's about Minis ;)

I agree, why quote us as not being able to back up our quotes and then do exactly the same!

As stated a synthetic oil causes component engagement issues amongst other issues

[bluedragon]

The guy who wrote the .PDF is the guy that determined that JASO MA2 spec oil is the best for automatic Minis. He posts regularly on the US Mini Mania forum when oil topics come up. He's a tribologist. You do know what those people do for a living, right?

 

Try searching on the terms "Richard Widman oil" and see what comes up. I'll take that over people who have never even tried synthetic let alone personally seen a failure attributed to it and had the oil analyzed to prove it.

 

 

Dave

[bluedragon]

Here's one mechanic to listen to - how about Keith Calver of Calver Special Tuning? He's got a couple of articles on oil, and neither warn against it - quite the contrary, the only cautions he has is that it's more expensive and some brands (not all) of synthetic don't transfer heat as well as conventional. I have heard testimony to that as well (people switching to Mobil 1 experiencing somewhat higher oil temperatures.) 

 

Nor does he sell gearbox parts, so it's unlikely he's trying to drum up extra business by supporting the use of synthetic.

 

https://www.calverst...ature-critical/

 

https://www.calverst...t-does-and-how/

 

 

Dave

[cal844]

I've had it with a mates stox engine... Basically a bog standard, restricted 998... The problem? Synchro hub failure and when the box was stripped the bearing cages had been eaten away with oil Contamination. I've also seen it where a gearbox on a vauxhall corsa C was scrapped because the failure was so bad...

[Dusky]

The guy who wrote the .PDF is the guy that determined that JASO MA2 spec oil is the best for automatic Minis. He posts regularly on the US Mini Mania forum when oil topics come up. He's a tribologist. You do know what those people do for a living, right?

Try searching on the terms "Richard Widman oil" and see what comes up. I'll take that over people who have never even tried synthetic let alone personally seen a failure attributed to it and had the oil analyzed to prove it.


Dave

Where has he done research on the MANUAL shared engine and gearbox oil of a mini?
Synthetic oils are superior in every way EXCEPT when your syncros aren't compatible with the synthetics.
Same reason you don't need LSD additive on old GM LSD's when using synehic oil.
For people who want to use synethics in everything, amsoil even specs a synethetic oil with friction modifiers now to be able to be used in older gearboxes. If oil manufacturers acknowledge this phenomena, why wouldn't you?
A friction modified synethic for shared oil systems isn't readily aviable anywhere here. I'm sure you ll point us in the right direction though.

Edited by Dusky, 17 June 2021 - 09:57 AM.

[bluedragon]

If you had taken the trouble to read the Mr. Widman's .pdf, you would have learned that it's the oil spec, not the base stock, that's the problem with synchronizers. 

 

I'll post a quote from it here since you did not read it (interesting how you can slam it without reading it, he has a whole section on the manual greabox issue.)

 

"But should we put current friction modified API SN gasoline engine oils in there? The answer is no, for two basic reasons. First, just like any flat tappet engine, with the sliding action of our valve trains, we are better protected by ZDDP than the modern friction modifiers designed for roller bearing rockers and various other things. With valve spring pressure originally 70 lbs. and then 94 lbs. (not as high as some engines, but higher than many of that time.), we need that ZDDP. And second, because they are too slippery for the synchronizers. The manual transmission Minis are best served by diesel formulation oils since they have higher levels of ZDDP."

 

This has nothing to do with synthetic or non-synthetic. Oh, and by the way, did you read the Rover supplied table for recommended oils? (post #2) I'll type it in if that wasn't read either. Look near the bottom, where Rover says:

 

"Engine/gearbox - Turbo models

 

Only synthetic oil must be used in this engine. We recommend the use of Syntron X. When this oil is not available, use well known brands of synthetic oil meeting API SG or SG/CD."

 

But I suppose Rover, who had to pay out warranty claims on these gearboxes, didn't know that synthetic is incompatible with the synchronizers. Is that why they ended up being sold to China?

 

 

Dave

[Dusky]

If you had taken the trouble to read the Mr. Widman's .pdf, you would have learned that it's the oil spec, not the base stock, that's the problem with synchronizers.

I'll post a quote from it here since you did not read it (interesting how you can slam it without reading it, he has a whole section on the manual greabox issue.)

"But should we put current friction modified API SN gasoline engine oils in there? The answer is no, for two basic reasons. First, just like any flat tappet engine, with the sliding action of our valve trains, we are better protected by ZDDP than the modern friction modifiers designed for roller bearing rockers and various other things. With valve spring pressure originally 70 lbs. and then 94 lbs. (not as high as some engines, but higher than many of that time.), we need that ZDDP. And second, because they are too slippery for the synchronizers. The manual transmission Minis are best served by diesel formulation oils since they have higher levels of ZDDP."

This has nothing to do with synthetic or non-synthetic. Oh, and by the way, did you read the Rover supplied table for recommended oils? (post #2) I'll type it in if that wasn't read either. Look near the bottom, where Rover says:

"Engine/gearbox - Turbo models

Only synthetic oil must be used in this engine. We recommend the use of Syntron X. When this oil is not available, use well known brands of synthetic oil meeting API SG or SG/CD."

But I suppose Rover, who had to pay out warranty claims on these gearboxes, didn't know that synthetic is incompatible with the synchronizers. Is that why they ended up being sold to China?


Dave

So, again, find us a suitable friction modified synthetic that works in our cars.
If you had cared to read my comment you d have seen me saying synthetics can work.
The diesel oil formulation is something of the past too, not applicable anymore today.

[cal844]

If you had taken the trouble to read the Mr. Widman's .pdf, you would have learned that it's the oil spec, not the base stock, that's the problem with synchronizers.

I'll post a quote from it here since you did not read it (interesting how you can slam it without reading it, he has a whole section on the manual greabox issue.)

"But should we put current friction modified API SN gasoline engine oils in there? The answer is no, for two basic reasons. First, just like any flat tappet engine, with the sliding action of our valve trains, we are better protected by ZDDP than the modern friction modifiers designed for roller bearing rockers and various other things. With valve spring pressure originally 70 lbs. and then 94 lbs. (not as high as some engines, but higher than many of that time.), we need that ZDDP. And second, because they are too slippery for the synchronizers. The manual transmission Minis are best served by diesel formulation oils since they have higher levels of ZDDP."

This has nothing to do with synthetic or non-synthetic. Oh, and by the way, did you read the Rover supplied table for recommended oils? (post #2) I'll type it in if that wasn't read either. Look near the bottom, where Rover says:

"Engine/gearbox - Turbo models

Only synthetic oil must be used in this engine. We recommend the use of Syntron X. When this oil is not available, use well known brands of synthetic oil meeting API SG or SG/CD."

But I suppose Rover, who had to pay out warranty claims on these gearboxes, didn't know that synthetic is incompatible with the synchronizers. Is that why they ended up being sold to China?


Dave

So, again, find us a suitable friction modified synthetic that works in our cars.
If you had cared to read my comment you d have seen me saying synthetics can work.
The diesel oil formulation is something of the past too, not applicable anymore today.

I agree with Dusky on this one. Modern oils can work BUT some will need an additive to make them more compatible with the mini gearboxes.

Remember it is the gearbox that needs higher levels of protection than the engine.

I'm interested to see what synthetic oil recommendations come from this topic.

Edited by cal844, 17 June 2021 - 10:30 AM.

[Miki Leyland]

The guy who wrote the .PDF is the guy that determined that JASO MA2 spec oil is the best for automatic Minis. He posts regularly on the US Mini Mania forum when oil topics come up. He's a tribologist. You do know what those people do for a living, right?

 

Try searching on the terms "Richard Widman oil" and see what comes up. I'll take that over people who have never even tried synthetic let alone personally seen a failure attributed to it and had the oil analyzed to prove it.

 

 

Dave

I've known Richard Widman and his theories about oil in Minis for years now and even argued with him in Facebook with an open mind... but each and every time he's been asked for any proof or solid argument he just spreads that very same .pdf he wrote, so...

[JDMRoverMini]

Thank you all for the lively discussion.

My end result: I’m going with a 10w-40 JASO MA2 spec oil.

https://www.valvolin...oil/synpower-4t

Edited by JDMRoverMini, 17 June 2021 - 05:24 PM.