44 replies to this topic

[bluedragon]

To distill what I read from Mr. Widman's doc, the recommendation is a diesel CI-4 class oil, and NOT a SN-class oil, be it a conventional oil or synthetic. There are some non-rated oils (such as Redline synthetic, which I use) which are suitable. Redline's oil also has a GL-4 gear rating. This is as of a year ago (June 2020.)

 

Mr. Widman is not the last and only word when it comes to oil, but his is the only Mini-specific oil treatise I've seen backed with science, analysis, and examples. If there were a similar document on the other side of the argument, I'd definitely revise my views. But quite literally, there is only anecdotal testimony.

 

The closest there is (that I have seen) is someone saying they put a synthetic oil it, something bad happened, and therefore the oil must be unsuitable for Minis. No oil analysis (which anyone can have done) and no analysis of the synchronizers or other failed hard parts (not very easy for people to have done.)

 

However, the fundamental issue here is the idea that "synthetics" are unfit for the Mini. Maybe people are confusing "SN" class oil with "synthetic." But to me it's obvious any compatibility issues are unrelated to "synthetic" or "non-synthetic" oil, it's some other aspect. Especially given that Rover itself recommended synthetic for the most powerful of their Minis.

 

 

Dave

[Dusky]

Which redline is that? Partn°?

[bluedragon]

I've been using the Red Line 20/50, current sku 12504. When I use up my current stock (which I purchase by the case due to the cost) I'm going to switch to 10/30 (a decision which may well be as contentious as advocating synthetic oil.   ) Give me about 18 months and I'll be trying the latest formulation.

 

I was glad to have the 20/50 though when I was climbing a 5000' altitude change roadway in the height of summer (105°F.) The oil temp gauge was getting up towards the red, but no issues on a 8 hour pull.

 

Also note that Red Line oil is not API certified. They have always (at least the past 20 years) said their oil is suitable for the latest specifications, but it is not actually certified. My understanding is that they ignore the ZDDP maximum of the latest API specs and exceed the permitted levels among other things. I cannot find my reference stating this right now.

 

If my memory is not faulty this may be why Mr. Widman lists the Red Line as a suitable oil candidate for the Mini (they ignore certain SN aspects.) Keith Calver recommends Torco, but where I live it isn't as easily available. I'd try it if I could find it when I next needed a oil change.

 

 

Dave

Edited by bluedragon, 18 June 2021 - 06:12 PM.

[Dusky]

Weird how I can't find anything that says it's GL-4 specced though.

10w30 is a good idea imho. Certainly in our climates. I run amsoil Z rod in all my other cars. Throwing a fanbelt at 6k rpm and overheating to +260°F, no engine damage. That's what I like about synthetics.

[bluedragon]

I'm trying to find that GL-4 information again as well. When I switched to Redline 10 years ago, this was a clincher for me. But I didn't bookmark it (or it was given in email correspondence with Redline) so I don't have it either (yet.)

 

 

Dave

[Earwax]

As always , an emotive topic.

What about our engines/gearboxes if there is no need to retain synchros ( eg the current dogboxes). ?  Does  the diff or ( Quaife or LSD ) work with synthetics?..  My limited view is without the requirement for synchros, then synthetic becomes more likely a candidate. some of the racing fellows using dogboxes have tried using some Motorbike synthetics. ( I haven't really heard/seen hard evidence either way to say this works or not ): etc   In my N A racer i am using a very good quality base mineral oil 20/50 (Brad Penn) that has high but not extreme ZDDP- I think a synthetic (plus additives maybe) will be out there and appropriate, but just finding the right one is part of the dilemma.

[Dusky]

As always , an emotive topic.
What about our engines/gearboxes if there is no need to retain synchros ( eg the current dogboxes). ? Does the diff or ( Quaife or LSD ) work with synthetics?.. My limited view is without the requirement for synchros, then synthetic becomes more likely a candidate. some of the racing fellows using dogboxes have tried using some Motorbike synthetics. ( I haven't really heard/seen hard evidence either way to say this works or not ): etc In my N A racer i am using a very good quality base mineral oil 20/50 (Brad Penn) that has high but not extreme ZDDP- I think a synthetic (plus additives maybe) will be out there and appropriate, but just finding the right one is part of the dilemma.

You could use it with dogboxes, but 9/10 not with any LSD that uses clutches

[Ethel]

I don't think there's anything different about the Quaife for Minis, so you could see what it says on the Quaife website. They're in a few production cars so I doubt there's an issue.

[bluedragon]

I went to Redline's website and submitted a question on the GL-4 topic. The reply:

 

"David,

 

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your Mini the 10W40 would be recommended, it would provide GL-4 protection levels and shouldn’t be too slippery for the synchros.

 

Regards,

 

Dave Granquist"

 

So, just go to the website and ask Redline if you have questions...

 

 

Dave

[Spider]

There is (or was) a very small range of Synthetics that could be used in a Mini without issue. Many are not compatible with the Gearbox Baulk rings, as many others have said here.

 

My own experience, when I had my business was that I had quite a few cars bought in for Gearbox overhauls because " It's funny, I just did an oil change and almost right away the gearbox started grinding gears. " The first one that was bought to me it was clear it needed an overhaul, but on stripping it apart, while the Baulk Rings did have some wear, they were well in spec and the springs in the hubs weren't too bad (though, they were replaced). I was at a bit of a loss and wasn't prepared to reassemble it without finding a cause. After some discussion with the owner, he'd used Mobil 1 (it was fairly new on the market then), then suspecting that was the issue, I reassembled it all, filled it with BP Corse+ and it worked like a bought one. I had a few other cars over the years come in with similar complaints following an oil changed. Being a bit more wised up, all of these were cured with an Oil Change.

I'm happy to run Mineral Oils all day, every day.

 

I just read the first few lines of Mr. Wildman's blurb and this caught my eye;-

 

" that with that oil they sometimes get as many as 100,000 km between overhauls. To me, that is a problem.I expect 500,000 km as a minimum "

 

I'll try and find it again, but a BMC Document from the 60's stated that in the Mini, they expected the power unit to run for around 60 000 miles (100 000 km) between major overhauls. Granted, the Oils we have today are better than those in the 60's but not to the extent of extending the life of these engines 5 fold. Again, going back to my commercial experience with Minis and Mokes, on average, what I found was very much in line with what BMC said. Most power units needed a major overhaul around the 80 000 - 120 000 km mark, though, there was the odd one that would go for around 150 000 - 160 000 km, but they were very much the exception.

 

I'm not interested in debating any of this ^ this is just my own findings from my experience.
 

 

I am having a re-think on grades though. Our Gearboxes are based on the A30 / A35 Gearbox. The Oil that was recommended for these by Austin was 10W40 Engine Oil. I've always found, with the 20W50's and 20W60's, the oil needs a lot of warming up to let the engine run 'free'.

[bluedragon]

Perhaps fivefold increase in life may be too much to attribute to modern oil, but the oil technology is far better now than it was in the 60's (setting aside any properties inappropriate for our odd little cars.)

 

I would easily expect life to double if not triple using modern oils vs. what was out there in the 60's. Even a Jaguar called for oil changes every 3,000 miles back in the 60's. Today that is unnecessary though people still do it out of tradition (under normal usage conditions.)

 

For sure, my Mini's engine has racked up at least 60,000km and does not need a engine rebuild (though it could use decoking of the head and piston tops.) It probably has more mileage than that since I doubt the person who sold it to me rebuilt the engine before I bought it - if he did, he certainly missed out on a valuable sales feature! And it has run mostly synthetic Red Line oil the whole time. (my first oil change and one other were with conventional oil, one 10-30 and one 20-50.)

 

For anything wider than a 20 point viscosity split, I would only use synthetic in a Mini. This is because the multi-viscosity properties of a synthetic are inherent in the molecular structure of the oil, whereas conventional oil requires additives to gain multi-viscosity.

 

One those additives are worn out (like between the gears of a Mini transmission) it becomes a single-grade, single viscosity oil. The bigger the split, the more additives needed for regular oil.

 

 

Dave

[gazza82]

I am having a re-think on grades though. Our Gearboxes are based on the A30 / A35 Gearbox. The Oil that was recommended for these by Austin was 10W40 Engine Oil. I've always found, with the 20W50's and 20W60's, the oil needs a lot of warming up to let the engine run 'free'.

Actually it is 20W50 mineral or an alternative is SAE30 but I think that was for warmer climates. I don't have the A35 handbook available at the moment but if I can find one I'll try and take a piture ... I have owned an A35 since the early 1970s and I am rebuilding it at the moment.

[gazza82]

Found the A30 one .. I think A35s are the same

 recomm10.jpg   121.88K   0 downloads

[Spider]

Found the A30 one .. I think A35s are the same

recomm10.jpg

 

 

Thanks Gazza. Yes, it would have been a Monograde in the day, same as that for the engine in 'warmer' climates.

[gazza82]

Most of us in the UK use 20W50, with Valvoline VR1 being a big favourite. Duckhams have re-released their old "green" formula over here a couple of years ago. I used that in the 70s.

But some have used 10W40 semi-synth or synth for the engine and a couple have tried 80/90 in the gearbox especially the later 1098cc (or 1275cc Midget) boxes as they have needle-bearings rather than bronze! We're lucky in a way that the two are separate! :)