16 replies to this topic

[alhow]

Hi,

 

So I've been tinkering and encountered an issue I can't overcome. '79 Mini 1000.

 

I bought a pair of LED Headlights : Bulb Conversion from H4 - LED (same h4 connector) (High/Low Only Lights*)

 

Note - It worked a few weeks ago, but something along the way has messed them up from working.

* 1) The fact the new lights are just a headlight - High/Low, might be where an issue is originating from? (No sidelight, I dont know if this causes an issue when it comes to the switches and controlling these bulbs.)

 

 

 

Example of problem:

 

2) The Headlight switch on the dash is a bit iffy and is going to be changed to first see if this is what's causing the issue, but anyway:

 

- With the dashboard rocker switch half depressed

   = No Headlights at all.

   + If I flick the indicator stalk on the steering column towards me, I get the h/b dashboard light, light blue each time its pulled towards the driver. Still no headlights.

   + If I click the indicator stalk forward the h/b light stays off, and the stalk stays in the fixed forward position as it should. Still no headlights.

 

- With the dashboard rocker switch fully depressed

   = LH Headlight = Light!! (dont know whether its High or Low).

   = RH Headlight = No Light.. BOOO!

   + If I flick the indicator stalk on the steering column towards me, I get the h/b dashboard light, light blue each time its pulled towards the driver. The Left Headlight stays on and doesn't seem to change brightness at all.

    + If I click the stalk forward the h/b light turns on and the stalk stays in the forward position as it should, but the headlight goes off (3. This doesn't seem right? Is it right?)

 

I can't remember how these lights SHOULD operate with original set up. I'd of thought

Dashboard Rocker Half depressed = side light - (Which I now dont have)

Fully Depressed = Low Beam Headlight, With Full beam functionality on the indicator stalk to either flash when I pull the stalk towards me or stay on full beam (half beam??) when the stalk is locked forward. I'd expect the blue HB light to only light up when the stalk is locked forward or pulled towards me... - I dont know if that's correct, and I dont know why there's no light in the front right.

 

The flasher units have been replaced, the dash lights have been replaced, the hazard relay and flasher relay has been replaced, all converted to LED and all worked, but each time I sort one problem as always a new one appears!! Any suggestions? - Also today I changed the dashboard lights to LED, and added the hazard flasher relay, and all of that was working fine, I also shared the earth point between the hazard flasher and the indicator flasher.. I can't see this being an issue, but that's the only changes I've made recently, my first thought is the switch that's a bit iffy... but dont know if im missing something obvious?>>

 

Thanks

Alex

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bpirie1000]

I would suggest to clean up your earths to start with. Take it from there...

[Ethel]

You do need sidelights legally, it won't pass an mot without them. Though LED headlights may not either.

 

Some of what you describe is normal. The high beam flasher has its own supply direct to the stalk so should always work regardless of the rocker switch position.

[gazza82]

You do need sidelights legally, it won't pass an mot without them. Though LED headlights may not either.

If these are actual LED headlight units they should be ok. What will fail is an LED bulb fitted to a headlamp unit that was originally halogen. The headlamp reflector wasn't designed for the led bulb light spread.

[Ethel]

Fair comment, if they were just bulbs he'd still have the sidelights. Assuming they meet the right regulations too.

[Clip]

Not sure what your actual problem is, but just a couple of thoughts about your setup.
It sounds like it may be your dash switch. But if you think that’s ok, do you have relay/s wired in for the headlights? If so, that would be my next check. Make sure grounds are good etc. and just replace if not sure.

 

Other thoughts,  If you have replaced the Ignition warning light bulb in your dash with an LED bulb, your alternator may not work. I got caught with this and it took me a day to work it out. There have been other posts here about this. Believe it or not, but the alternator needs the load of that little bulb to trigger into to charge state.

Also, replacement LED H4 headlight bulbs, in my experience of testing many brands from $30 cheapies to $200 good ones, rarely is there any noticeable difference in brightness between hi beam and low beam. Hi beam just activates the other chips that are not covered by the inbuilt reflector in the bulb itself (designed to not blind oncoming traffic, but works poorly). In my opinion, this is the biggest problem with these LED conversions kits. The low beams are too bright and do blind oncoming traffic, and the high beam makes little difference other than flooding the road even more. My choice if wanting decent headlights in the mini is to replace the entire unit with a properly designed LED unit. 

Edited by Clip, 29 September 2022 - 01:04 AM.

[gazza82]

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

[Quinlan minor]

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

I've used LED Headlamp bulbs designed to operate with an H4 lens. There are no problems with the spread or the cut-off and it has passed multiple MOTs.

The info below is clear:

 

"The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations states a bulb needs to be E marked, approved or have the correct wattage in order to be road legal. However this is not a requirement that is checked by an MOT testing station. This is probably due to it being an almost impossible task. If they have to check approval marks on bulbs, they would have to do this for every component on the car! That’s just not going to happen.

Instead the MOT stations adhere to the MOT Testing Guides.

 “Check HID and LED headlamps for mandatory levelling and cleaning devices” and the assessor needs to check the lighting for “Operation“, “Security” and “Condition” which essentially means that they need to make sure that they work and are fitted correctly.

That’s it. Nothing else is mentioned regarding the use of LED headlight bulbs.

Now you would be forgiven for thinking that aftermarket LED bulbs would therefore fail an MOT as you would not have a self-levelling or headlight cleaning system installed. However Section 4.1.5 of the MOT inspection manual states that not all vehicles are fitted with a levelling device so if your vehicle doesn’t have one, it would not be tested.

Brexit 2021 Update

Please note that since January 2021, the MOT Inspection manual has been updated to include LED bulbs.

Section 4.1.4 now states the following:

“Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.”

This is a brand new update that seems to only focus on headlights.

There are no mentions to fail other LED bulbs such as brake lights, tail lights or reversing lights.

With no other mention of after-market LEDs in the MOT guidelines, all that is left is for them to check is that the beam pattern is correct and the colour of the light is predominantly white, white with a blue tint or yellow. Any good quality after-market LED bulbs will meet this criteria.

As long as the beam pattern and the colour of the light is correct – then there is no reason an LED upgrade bulb will fail an MOT."

 

 

[Quinlan minor]

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

See above regarding the MOT situation.

LEDs are available for both positive and negative earth vehicles and many are not polarity sensitive.

[KTS]

 

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

See above regarding the MOT situation.

LEDs are available for both positive and negative earth vehicles and many are not polarity sensitive.

 

 

i'm confused;  the text you copied in above contains apparently contradictory statements:

 

one part states:

 

“Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.”

 

..but then goes on to say :

 

"...As long as the beam pattern and the colour of the light is correct – then there is no reason an LED upgrade bulb will fail an MOT."

 

both cannot be true or have i missed something ?

 

Having said that, i'm sure there has been a more recent update to the effect that for pre '86 cars an LED bulb in an existing headlamp is not an MOT fail

[GraemeC]

An LED bulb in a Halogen headlamp unit should fail. 

I think the text copied above gives (poor) advice on the premise that the tester may not be able to tell without taking the bulb out, which they're not allowed to do.

[KTS]

....not according to this note:

 

https://www.gov.uk/g...amp-conversions

 

 

For class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles, the defect ‘Light source and lamp not compatible’ only applies to vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986.

Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect.

[Quinlan minor]

 

 

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

See above regarding the MOT situation.

LEDs are available for both positive and negative earth vehicles and many are not polarity sensitive.

 

 

i'm confused;  the text you copied in above contains apparently contradictory statements:

 

one part states:

 

“Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.”

 

..but then goes on to say :

 

"...As long as the beam pattern and the colour of the light is correct – then there is no reason an LED upgrade bulb will fail an MOT."

 

both cannot be true or have i missed something ?

 

Having said that, i'm sure there has been a more recent update to the effect that for pre '86 cars an LED bulb in an existing headlamp is not an MOT fail

 

 

"Should" is non-specific information, if it was to be make or break it would read "Must not".

That and the fact that the fee paid does not give them time to check makes LEDs a non-issue.
 

[KTS]

 

 

 

LEDs are also polarity sensitive. So if fitted to positive earth car they will probably need to be rewired.

Looks like there are just bulb replacements so are illegal and mot failure in UK. They are also going to dazzle oncoming drivers with their poor light spread.

See above regarding the MOT situation.

LEDs are available for both positive and negative earth vehicles and many are not polarity sensitive.

 

 

i'm confused;  the text you copied in above contains apparently contradictory statements:

 

one part states:

 

“Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.”

 

..but then goes on to say :

 

"...As long as the beam pattern and the colour of the light is correct – then there is no reason an LED upgrade bulb will fail an MOT."

 

both cannot be true or have i missed something ?

 

Having said that, i'm sure there has been a more recent update to the effect that for pre '86 cars an LED bulb in an existing headlamp is not an MOT fail

 

 

"Should" is non-specific information, if it was to be make or break it would read "Must not".

That and the fact that the fee paid does not give them time to check makes LEDs a non-issue.
 

 

 

...and your interpretation of the sentence that follows ? 

[alhow]

Thanks to those with the advice re the problem I am encountering.

Edited by Ethel, 30 September 2022 - 09:43 AM.
Fair comment, if anyone wants to discuss the merits & legal issues we have chat sections for that.