49 replies to this topic

[mbolt998]

After reading lots of web-pages which turned out to be American, and therefore misleading, I've gone and put double flares on half my brake unions.

 

Google for this stuff and all that comes up is "never ever use single flares on cars", "single flares will kill you to death instantly", "not only will this kill you it will hurt the whole time you're dying", "this will kill not just you but also innocent children", etc. etc.

 

Turns out that what the tool does if you only do the first stage is not that kind of "single flare", also known as the "death flare", but a "bubble flare", which is what you actually need most of the time on a Mini.

 

Currently my understanding is that I want that dome-shaped end ("bubble flare") on pretty much all the unions. That's what the pipes coming out looked like anyway. The "double flare" is what I want on the female side of a coupler.

 

Oh well I'm getting plenty of practice with the flaring tool.

[KTS]

..alternatively, use a universal flare 

[sonscar]

Look into the hole on the fitting.If it tapers in like a funnel you need a single bubble flare.If it points out like a volcano you need a double flare.Both these are SAE(not DIN).American fittings and terminology often differ.Be careful,you could indeed die and kill others if the worst happens.Steve..

[gav]

You should be double flaring them if using Kunifer lines, every brake pipe we sell is double flared, a lot of confusion comes from comparing the original steel lines to Kunifer lines.

[mbolt998]

You should be double flaring them if using Kunifer lines, every brake pipe we sell is double flared, a lot of confusion comes from comparing the original steel lines to Kunifer lines.

I'm using copper lines (which are also apparently deadly but what MiniSpares sell so they surely can't be that bad). The flaring tool I have basically puts a dome on in the first pass, and then a little indentation into the dome if you repeat with the other end (this is a "double flare"). Are you saying I want the double flare even though all the (mostly steel) lines that came out had bubble flares? How is that double flare going to match up to the presumably concave shape on the other side of the unions?

[KTS]

the following page shows quite well

 

https://mossmotoring...iversal-flares/

[mbolt998]

the following page shows quite well

 

https://mossmotoring...iversal-flares/

I'm now wondering if the flares I did are OK and I actually don't have to redo them all. This is the tool I'm using:

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/332827759059

 

[KTS]

as long as you've used the correctly formed flare for the fittings you should be fine

[weef]

I think it is a bit of a worry that you are carrying out repairs on safety related components with little knowledge of the basics.

No matter which material the pipes are made of the correct pipe flair, single or double, must be used.

I suggest if you cannot identify the pipe flair that is required for each application then STOP and go no further until you can.

Steel, copper or kunifer materials are perfectly suited for brake pipes, and normally copper or kunifer are the aftermarket preferred material.

Copper is a bit "soft" and can sometimes be difficult to get straight on long runs and maybe not so pleasing to look at against the more rigid nature of kunifer.

Until you can identify which flair is required go no further, then recheck your earlier work and amend as needed.

[mbolt998]

I think it is a bit of a worry that you are carrying out repairs on safety related components with little knowledge of the basics.

No matter which material the pipes are made of the correct pipe flair, single or double, must be used.

I suggest if you cannot identify the pipe flair that is required for each application then STOP and go no further until you can.

Steel, copper or kunifer materials are perfectly suited for brake pipes, and normally copper or kunifer are the aftermarket preferred material.

Copper is a bit "soft" and can sometimes be difficult to get straight on long runs and maybe not so pleasing to look at against the more rigid nature of kunifer.

Until you can identify which flair is required go no further, then recheck your earlier work and amend as needed.

Well with all due respect I am trying to identify which flare is required here. And yes I'm certainly going to redo any that are wrong.

[sonscar]

Bubble fits in the bucket.Cone fits over the volcano.Simple.Steve..

[mbolt998]

OK things are getting weirder. When Americans talk about a "single flare" they mean an AN/JIC 37 degree flare. Nobody uses that on car brakes and it looks weird (kind of like a funnel).

 

Then apparently the two proper "standards" are the SAE double flare, which is what my tool makes (if you use both dies, one after the other), which is generally supposed to go with imperial systems; and on the other hand, the DIN bubble flare, which usually goes with metric standards and is what you would find on a European car.

 

If you use the SAE tool but only do the first step, that isn't exactly the same as a DIN bubble flare. It's kind of bubble-shaped, but not quite the same, in particular, it's kind of tapered at the back, not flat like a DIN bubble flare. I don't know if this is any official standard. I guess we could call it an "SAE half double flare".

 

The pipes that came off my 1979 Mini look like DIN bubble flares (flat at the back), but the unions are UNF. It's difficult to measure the threads but a 7/16 spanner fits the nut perfectly and there is no common metric size close to that.

 

But the consensus seems to be that with a non-steel line it will all crush together OK anyway. So I'm not sure now whether I really need half double flares or double flares. I'm going to have a look inside the master cylinder and brake pressure distributor thingy to see if I can see volcanoes or buckets.

[Earwax]

Hi mbolt998

 

At the moment it seems you are asking system questions - what system is correct  ( answers vary as to period correct, safe, matching etc)  and secondly more specifically about the form your tool makes.

 

Perhaps if you post a link to the flare tool you are using and then some photos of the results in one pass or changed dies etc, then some clever and safe people can give you clarity. ( include exact info or links to the kunifer or copper line etc

 

As Weef points out and you are readily aware - this is an area where near enough is not good enough. 

 

In going forward - if the lines you have already done aren't the solution .... you may need to think about the cost benefit of getting a different tool or buying more line or indeed outsourcing the job.

 

Once you have decided if you are pressing on ( pun intended) or veering course then hopefully you can have certainty with your projected result. Best of luck.

[mbolt998]

Hi mbolt998

 

At the moment it seems you are asking system questions - what system is correct  ( answers vary as to period correct, safe, matching etc)  and secondly more specifically about the form your tool makes.

 

Perhaps if you post a link to the flare tool you are using and then some photos of the results in one pass or changed dies etc, then some clever and safe people can give you clarity. ( include exact info or links to the kunifer or copper line etc

 

As Weef points out and you are readily aware - this is an area where near enough is not good enough. 

 

In going forward - if the lines you have already done aren't the solution .... you may need to think about the cost benefit of getting a different tool or buying more line or indeed outsourcing the job.

 

Once you have decided if you are pressing on ( pun intended) or veering course then hopefully you can have certainty with your projected result. Best of luck.

This is the tool:

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/332827759059

 

These are, from left to right, one of the new unions, an SAE double flare, an SAE "half double flare", made with my tool, and one of the lines off the car, which looks to me like a DIN bubble flare.

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  pipes.jpg   59.48K   1 downloads

[gav]

 

You should be double flaring them if using Kunifer lines, every brake pipe we sell is double flared, a lot of confusion comes from comparing the original steel lines to Kunifer lines.

I'm using copper lines (which are also apparently deadly but what MiniSpares sell so they surely can't be that bad). The flaring tool I have basically puts a dome on in the first pass, and then a little indentation into the dome if you repeat with the other end (this is a "double flare"). Are you saying I want the double flare even though all the (mostly steel) lines that came out had bubble flares? How is that double flare going to match up to the presumably concave shape on the other side of the unions?

 

 

 

No that is incorrect, we (Minispares) only sell Kunifer lines not Copper.