56 replies to this topic

[mullet]

Hi members,

 

I appreciate this might be a common thread with several possible causes, but specifically the problem only started after the battery went flat, so I am focusing on this for now and hope this isn't duplicating another thread.

 

Car: Mini Mayfair, automatic, 1000cc, 1984.

 

Problem: wife left lights on, battery drained.

 

On trying to jumpstart it, it turns over but won't always fire up.  It fires up about 1 in 50 attempts (appreciate not good to do it that often!).  Once fired up and taken for a drive to charge the battery, then stopping and trying to start the car again, it did fire up but driving 5 yards it died.  Then again, turns over but won't fire up again (even using jump cables).  This 1 in 50 chance/mind of its own to me suggested a lose connection, but all connections seem fine...

  All connections seem in good contact;

  Spark plugs, cables to distributor, about 3 years old (but very little driving has been done on them)

  Everything appears dry;

  Battery...do not know age, but at least 6 years and probably more.

  All fuses are fine.

 

So, given this started only when the batter went flat, could it simply need a new battery?

 

If jumpstarting simulates a perfectly healthy battery, then can the battery be ruled out as the cause?  Or even with jumpstarting, can a dead battery still mess up the circuit/prevent sufficient charge for turnover/sparks?

 

Excuse the naiviety.  I hope this explains well and how the drained battery/sudden onset of problem seems more than coincidence.  Any ideas? 

[Steam]

Sounds like your battery has died. Draining will do it to an older battery. And yes it will drain away from an external source / battery.
It will be hard to start because the coil is getting low voltage thus not giving a good spark. If its electronic the will proba ly be no spark at all.
6 years is good for a battery, invest in a good new one.

[coopertaz]

jumpstarting should rule out battery if cranking ok, which it seems to be. start at beginning and check whether getting spark if so is issue fuel related? are plugs wet or sooted up. work on getting it to start first then move on to cutting out when driving

[coopertaz]

jumpstarting should rule out battery if cranking ok, which it seems to be. start at beginning and check whether getting spark if so is issue fuel related? are plugs wet or sooted up. work on getting it to start first then move on to cutting out when driving

[mullet]

Thanks for the replies already.  If, in anycase, it's clearly an old battery, then I might as well invest in one and see if it solves the issue.  I am sending the domestic boss to get one and will update the thread.

 

Of course, if still the same issue I'll dig into it, as coopertaz kindly suggests.  (forgot to say, fuel is getting to the engine no problem and fuel only a month old).

 

Possibly related to this: I wired up a usb port ages ago.  Worked fine, followed good instructions.  I did note, however, that while fine for small devices, with a GPS it doesn't really charge it and even seems to make the idle erratic.  The fact the USB is there isn't the cause as it's pugged into nothing at all right now.  But with the GPS, it is as if the GPS added a demand the circuits didn't like.  So I don't use the GPS anymore in the mini.  Could this be a sign the battery was already passed its best?  Or minis just aren't cut out for such tech?

Edited by mullet, 02 May 2023 - 10:16 AM.

[mullet]

UPDATE: as the battery shop is closed right now, I tried starting without jumpstart cables.  Same symptons.  Then with jumpstart cables, with same symptons (just a faster turnover).

 

I took a spark plug out (see photo).  Not clean, but also not too dirty, especially at the contacts, and a hint of fuel on it.  The domestic boss turned over the engine and no spark to be seen.  Taking the battery out, seemed well connected there too.

 

She's taking the old battery (maybe they can fully charge/test it...or recommend a new one).  More to follow....  1683024527757.JPEG   20.32K   0 downloads

Edited by mullet, 02 May 2023 - 11:14 AM.

[Ethel]

'84 is likely ballasted ignition. Is the bypass functioning properly - yellow/white wire to the solenoid that should only be live when the starter is engaged.

[mullet]

Got a new battery.  Bloke tested the old and said it has died.  New one turns over just fine, but still the same problem.  I cleaned up all reachable connections, but still the same issue.  Next I'll take the grill off and have a clean up around there and have a look at the condition of the wiring.

 

I still think this is electrical.  The amount of jump starting I was doing, I was careful but is there a chance it has fried something, and it wasn't going flat that caused this problem, but the jumpstarting messed something up?

 

I didn't mind buying a new battery as it was probably time.  But failing this, are there any other parts I should think about replacing that is likely to fix this issue that are "worth it" even if it isn't the cause?  I don't think anything has ever been replaced on it that relates to the motor, apart from servicable things like spark plugs, cables and distributor cap (done 3 years ago)! 

Edited by mullet, 02 May 2023 - 02:42 PM.

[mullet]

'84 is likely ballasted ignition. Is the bypass functioning properly - yellow/white wire to the solenoid that should only be live when the starter is engaged.

Ethel.  Thanks for your reply.  The coil says it must be connected to a ballasted system.  As stupid as I sound, I think I found the ballast under the screenwash bottle.  It doesn't look identifical, but approximately the same size as the one here: http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

I cannot identify the colours you mention.  Maybe it was redone at some point, I do not know.  I think I might have buggered something up on jumpstarting. 

 

I am guessing this is a good replacement and it is just a like-for-like swap, reconnecting just as it came off?  The Haynes manual goes into no detail on this, nor where this ballast is supposed to be located.

[Ethel]

What you've found (3 inch gold brick with wires at each end?) will be the ballast resistor for dim-dip headlights.

 

Look at the +ve coil terminal. If it's ballasted & as original there'll be 2 wires. One pink/white which IS the ballast (resistive wire). the other yellow/white.  The ignition circuit needs around 3 ohms resistance, in total, or the distributor points have a habit of melting. So that's either a 3 ohm coil & no ballast (plain white wire) or a 1.5 ohm coil & ballast. Coil's are as likely to be marked 12v for unballasted, or Ballast or 9v for, erm, ballasted.

[coopertaz]

check if you are getting 12volts to the coil when cranking using a test lamp, there should be a small wire comming to the coil from the starter solenoid this is the 12v supply to bypass the ballast system for start up is this connected to pole on middle of solenoid?

[bpirie1000]

Are you retaining 12.4-12.8v when the carnas been left for some time?

If there is a drain it mybe thatthe +ve cable is arcing off the body and draining things.

[mullet]

What you've found (3 inch gold brick with wires at each end?) will be the ballast resistor for dim-dip headlights.

 

Look at the +ve coil terminal. If it's ballasted & as original there'll be 2 wires. One pink/white which IS the ballast (resistive wire). the other yellow/white.  The ignition circuit needs around 3 ohms resistance, in total, or the distributor points have a habit of melting. So that's either a 3 ohm coil & no ballast (plain white wire) or a 1.5 ohm coil & ballast. Coil's are as likely to be marked 12v for unballasted, or Ballast or 9v for, erm, ballasted.

@Ethel.  Sorry for late reply.  I attach some photos.  It does have a pink/white one from coil, and it is hard to trace where it eventually goes (although it does seem to go towards what I thought was the 'ballast block' (see pictures 1 and 2).  Hard to tell if there's a pink/white going into that, however.  Probably irrelevant if you don't think this plays a role.  Any thought on this, what I could do next, now these photos have hopefully clarified what set up I have here?

 

Thanks also for other replies.  This all started after trying to jumpstart (still wondering if this buggered something up just the action of jumpstarting, inside a component for example?).  But I will see if there are any cables rubbed raw against bodywork too.

 

Sorry electrics is my weakness here but I have a neighbour who can whip out some meter or another.  mini1.JPG   26.46K   3 downloads  mini2.JPG   27.93K   3 downloads  mini3.JPG   30.48K   2 downloads

[Ethel]

Looks like the coil is for ballasted, so you'll need a ballasted supply (pink/white) to avoid melting. 

 

The other pictures are of a solenoid for an inertia starter motor. The terminal with the nut on the left it attached to the battery cable, so is permanently live. It has a collection of brown wires attached. A couple collect charge from the alternator and the others supply it to the rest of loom. The pink/white is only supplied when the ignition is on so it shouldn't be anywhere near there. The other terminal with a nut supplies the starter motor, but only when it's actuated. The red/white wire on its own terminal in piccy one does that when you turn they key all the way. There should be a similar terminal on the opposite side of the solenoid, that's where the yellow/white should attach. However, they do make solenoids without it for unballasted cars.

 

That looks like the yellow wire, on the left of the 2nd piccy, where does it go?

[mullet]

Looks like the coil is for ballasted, so you'll need a ballasted supply (pink/white) to avoid melting. 

 

The other pictures are of a solenoid for an inertia starter motor. The terminal with the nut on the left it attached to the battery cable, so is permanently live. It has a collection of brown wires attached. A couple collect charge from the alternator and the others supply it to the rest of loom. The pink/white is only supplied when the ignition is on so it shouldn't be anywhere near there. The other terminal with a nut supplies the starter motor, but only when it's actuated. The red/white wire on its own terminal in piccy one does that when you turn they key all the way. There should be a similar terminal on the opposite side of the solenoid, that's where the yellow/white should attach. However, they do make solenoids without it for unballasted cars.

 

That looks like the yellow wire, on the left of the 2nd piccy, where does it go?

@Ethel.  Thanks for your reply.  I will try tracing the yellow wire when the weather is dry and take more photos.  To recap, I changed no wiring, connections are clean and tight, engine turns over, did start sometimes, but then either drove fine when started for several miles, or stalled after putting into gear after a few meters.  Now, it just turns over, but no ignition (and I could see no spark on a removed spark plug). 

 

So although a 'sudden' problem that tied in with jumpstarting, it feels like the situation only got worse and worse over the many attempts to start the engine and/or the jumpstarting, to the point of never firing up now.

 

Could it just be worth getting new components anyway and rewire exact like-for-like, given I think all are original and I'd worried about future problems further away from home?  Or can you suggest a test I could try next?

 

Thanks for the patience - good education for me here.