56 replies to this topic

[mullet]

Looks like the coil is for ballasted, so you'll need a ballasted supply (pink/white) to avoid melting. 

 

The other pictures are of a solenoid for an inertia starter motor. The terminal with the nut on the left it attached to the battery cable, so is permanently live. It has a collection of brown wires attached. A couple collect charge from the alternator and the others supply it to the rest of loom. The pink/white is only supplied when the ignition is on so it shouldn't be anywhere near there. The other terminal with a nut supplies the starter motor, but only when it's actuated. The red/white wire on its own terminal in piccy one does that when you turn they key all the way. There should be a similar terminal on the opposite side of the solenoid, that's where the yellow/white should attach. However, they do make solenoids without it for unballasted cars.

 

That looks like the yellow wire, on the left of the 2nd piccy, where does it go?

Hi Ethel.  I attach 2 photos and although hard to be 100% sure without taking that air inlet out (how the heck does that come out....will figure it out if necessary), 95% sure it must go into that central connection.  This is one connection I haven't been able to clean up and looks like it would benefit from it.  Could it be as simple as that?  Although, all trouble happened with the jumpstarting.

 

This them, assuming there is only one yellow/white wire in the set up, goes to the coil as per photo A.  Does this help?  Please let me know what other photos might help, or what I could try next.  Thanks a lot!.  A.JPG   32.76K   2 downloads  B.JPG   28.94K   2 downloads

[gazza82]

Don't ASSUME anything .. check a wiring diagram for your vehicle.

Those solenoids have two main bolt on terminals for the main battery lead and then to the starter. The starter end is ONLY live when the solenoid is active.

The large brown cable is for the dynamo/alternator to charge the battery.

The white/red is from the ignition switch to activate the solenoid.

The yellow or yellow/white(?) will NOT be connected to the side of the solenoid that is connected to the starter. It has to be from somewhere else.

Edited by gazza82, 14 May 2023 - 08:56 AM.

[gazza82]

Just found a wiring diagram which shows a WHITE/YELLOW cable from solenoid to coil but it doesn't show which terminal on the solenoid. Same coil terminal as WHITE/PINK ballast wire ... (I've only ever seen earlier non-ballasted wired cars).

Remember also you have an auto so that is going to have an extra switch on the gearbox as a cut-out to stop it starting in the wrong gear, etc.

[mullet]

Just found a wiring diagram which shows a WHITE/YELLOW cable from solenoid to coil but it doesn't show which terminal on the solenoid. Same coil terminal as WHITE/PINK ballast wire ... (I've only ever seen earlier non-ballasted wired cars).

Remember also you have an auto so that is going to have an extra switch on the gearbox as a cut-out to stop it starting in the wrong gear, etc.

Hi Gazza.  I cannot for the life of me get that damn air duct thing off, but I was able to get a better look and now I am 100% certain picture B is correct.  I see no other yellow white cable at all in the engine compartment.  This does seem to go direct from picture A to picture B.

 

As for being automatic; if there's something wrong there, wouldn't it also stop the engine turning over?

 

Does anyone else think I fried something on jumpstarting?  It was from a Peugeot 106.

Edited by mullet, 14 May 2023 - 04:34 PM.

[BaronVonchesto]

 

Just found a wiring diagram which shows a WHITE/YELLOW cable from solenoid to coil but it doesn't show which terminal on the solenoid. Same coil terminal as WHITE/PINK ballast wire ... (I've only ever seen earlier non-ballasted wired cars).

Remember also you have an auto so that is going to have an extra switch on the gearbox as a cut-out to stop it starting in the wrong gear, etc.

Hi Gazza.  I cannot for the life of me get that damn air duct thing off, but I was able to get a better look and now I am 100% certain picture B is correct.  I see no other yellow white cable at all in the engine compartment.  This does seem to go direct from picture A to picture B.

 

As for being automatic; if there's something wrong there, wouldn't it also stop the engine turning over?

 

Does anyone else think I fried something on jumpstarting?  It was from a Peugeot 106.

 

 

hey mullet do you know how to work a multimeter? If you don't have one you can get a reasonably cheap one from halfords or Maplin. or very cheap one from amazon or aliexpress.

See this video guide on how to use a multimeter to check voltages.

 

With the ignition turned on, check the voltage across the two terminals of the coil and report back.

Check the voltage across one of the terminals and the car body, then repeat for the other.

let us know the results.

 

Lastly if you're comfortable doing it, disconnect the battery, then carefully note down which wires go to where on the coil, then remove the coil and check the resistances of the coil to make sure your coil is in good condition:
Use this guide

 

We can help you figure out if yours is a ballasted system or not based on the voltages

Edited by BaronVonchesto, 15 May 2023 - 09:51 AM.

[Lplus]

 

Looks like the coil is for ballasted, so you'll need a ballasted supply (pink/white) to avoid melting. 

 

The other pictures are of a solenoid for an inertia starter motor. The terminal with the nut on the left it attached to the battery cable, so is permanently live. It has a collection of brown wires attached. A couple collect charge from the alternator and the others supply it to the rest of loom. The pink/white is only supplied when the ignition is on so it shouldn't be anywhere near there. The other terminal with a nut supplies the starter motor, but only when it's actuated. The red/white wire on its own terminal in piccy one does that when you turn they key all the way. There should be a similar terminal on the opposite side of the solenoid, that's where the yellow/white should attach. However, they do make solenoids without it for unballasted cars.

 

That looks like the yellow wire, on the left of the 2nd piccy, where does it go?

Hi Ethel.  I attach 2 photos and although hard to be 100% sure without taking that air inlet out (how the heck does that come out....will figure it out if necessary), 95% sure it must go into that central connection.  This is one connection I haven't been able to clean up and looks like it would benefit from it.  Could it be as simple as that?  Although, all trouble happened with the jumpstarting.

 

This them, assuming there is only one yellow/white wire in the set up, goes to the coil as per photo A.  Does this help?  Please let me know what other photos might help, or what I could try next.  Thanks a lot!. A.JPG B.JPG

 

The wire that joins the white/yellow tracer wire on the lower terminal of the coil, is it white/pink tracer or just white?  If it is white/pink it should come straight from the fuse box as it is a resistor wire and the length of wire is the ballast resistor.  If it is a plain white wire it will either come direct from the fuse box (in which case the coil should be a 3 ohm unballasted coil) or it might come from a ballast resistor somewhere else which is in turn fed from the fuse box.  The white/red wire on the solenoid activates the solenoid and would run through a cutout switch on the auto box for safety..

Edited by Lplus, 15 May 2023 - 11:49 AM.

[Ethel]

The yellow/white looks correct on the solenoid, but someone's drawn a big arrow over it   . It has its own spade terminal, like the red/white on the other side. That's because it needs to be isolated, so it doesn't mess with the coil when it's not active. It could do that in 2 ways: either by supplying a "full fat" 12v to the ballast coil that would cause overheating, or by earthing & acting as a voltage divider so even less voltage is across the coil than it should get via the ballast wire.

 

The ballast wires I've seen have been spliced in to the loom, so the other end wasn't visible without unwrapping to find the join where pink/white becomes plain white. It must be a specific length to give the correct resistance, but I'm afraid I don't know what it is.

 

There also seems to be a red wire knocking about the coil +ve terminal. Where does that go?

 

There are 2 white/blacks on the -ve. Do you have a rev counter & does it work reliably if you do?

[mullet]

Hi all.  Some readings, a neighbour helped:

With the ignition turned on, voltage across the two terminals of the coil = 4.9v
With the ignition turned on, from yellow/white+pink/white coil terminal (the one lower down in picture A above) to earth(car body) = 6.7v
With the ignition turned on, from the two black/white cable coil (the one higher up in picture A above) terminal to earth(car body) = 1.39v
Battery terminals = 12.6v
Removed coil, resistance between terminals = 1.4 (whatever that unit is!)

 

Question: There are 2 white/blacks on the -ve. Do you have a rev counter & does it work reliably if you do?

Answer: yes, I do have a rev counter and it seems to work (feels right based on speed / sound of car when driving or idling and gears change when expected based on revs)

 

Question: There also seems to be a red wire knocking about the coil +ve terminal. Where does that go?

Answer: I attached a USB socket in the car about 4 years ago, with an in-line fuse, that is only on if ignition is on.  Didn't cause any issues and the USB is currently not plugged into anything.  (a gps doens't work well when plugged in, not charging well, and causes some erratic idlying, so it has been a long time since I used the usb port.  I may remove it and wire without going through the coil in future)

 

Question: The wire that joins the white/yellow tracer wire on the lower terminal of the coil, is it white/pink tracer or just white?  If it is white/pink it should come straight from the fuse box as it is a resistor wire and the length of wire is the ballast resistor.

Answer: it is white/pink and attached to the same spade terminal of the coil as a yellow/white.  I see no white/pink that goes direct into the fuse box (or either of a couple of other in-line fuses).

 

Lastly, perhaps this is normal, but the coil body felt warm as I was doing these tests (with the ignition on for a few minutes).

 

I hope I didn't miss any questions here.  Does this help?  Just let me know if there are any other tests I could do and again, all much appreciated!

[Lplus]

Hi all.  Some readings, a neighbour helped:

With the ignition turned on, voltage across the two terminals of the coil = 4.9v
With the ignition turned on, from yellow/white+pink/white coil terminal (the one lower down in picture A above) to earth(car body) = 6.7v
With the ignition turned on, from the two black/white cable coil (the one higher up in picture A above) terminal to earth(car body) = 1.39v
Battery terminals = 12.6v
Removed coil, resistance between terminals = 1.4 (whatever that unit is!)

 

Question: There are 2 white/blacks on the -ve. Do you have a rev counter & does it work reliably if you do?

Answer: yes, I do have a rev counter and it seems to work (feels right based on speed / sound of car when driving or idling and gears change when expected based on revs)

 

Question: There also seems to be a red wire knocking about the coil +ve terminal. Where does that go?

Answer: I attached a USB socket in the car about 4 years ago, with an in-line fuse, that is only on if ignition is on.  Didn't cause any issues and the USB is currently not plugged into anything.  (a gps doens't work well when plugged in, not charging well, and causes some erratic idlying, so it has been a long time since I used the usb port.  I may remove it and wire without going through the coil in future)

 

Question: The wire that joins the white/yellow tracer wire on the lower terminal of the coil, is it white/pink tracer or just white?  If it is white/pink it should come straight from the fuse box as it is a resistor wire and the length of wire is the ballast resistor.

Answer: it is white/pink and attached to the same spade terminal of the coil as a yellow/white.  I see no white/pink that goes direct into the fuse box (or either of a couple of other in-line fuses).

 

Lastly, perhaps this is normal, but the coil body felt warm as I was doing these tests (with the ignition on for a few minutes).

 

I hope I didn't miss any questions here.  Does this help?  Just let me know if there are any other tests I could do and again, all much appreciated!

Firstly the wiring diagrams I have all show the white/pink running all the way to the fuse box, still Ethel seems to think tha may not be the case so -

 

1.4 ohms is correct for the ballast type LV coil circuit.

4.9 volts across the coil suggests a current of 3.5 amps is being drawn.

The voltage at the white/pink seems fine at 6.7 volts

The coil does get warm with 17.5 watts continuously being generated in the LV circuit.

I'm a little surprised that the voltage at the white/black is as high as 1.39, if the points are closed I'd expect almost a dead short to earth  and with them open I'd expect 12.6v (I'm assuming it has points)  The rev counter doesn't take any power off this terminal as it just uses hgh/low voltage as a signal for the counter electronics.

 

Most odd, I take it you have cleaned and gapped the points if it has them?

[mullet]

Hi LPlus.  Quite a newbie to electronics on this car I'm afraid (more into the mechanics side).  So forgive me, but what do you mean by "I take it you have cleaned and gapped the points if it has them?"?  If all the spade-connectors, I did clean them up and they all seem to fit snug.  Except that yellow/white (picture B), as cannot access it just yet.

[sonscar]

You may benefit from a cheap dwell meter(Google it)and then you will know what the points are doing.Whislt using Google look up Kettering or points ignition.It is a very(very) simple system which is shrouded in magic.Steve..

[Lplus]

Hi LPlus.  Quite a newbie to electronics on this car I'm afraid (more into the mechanics side).  So forgive me, but what do you mean by "I take it you have cleaned and gapped the points if it has them?"?  If all the spade-connectors, I did clean them up and they all seem to fit snug.  Except that yellow/white (picture B), as cannot access it just yet.

The points inside the distributor under the distributor cap which open and close to make the coil produce a spark.  There's a capacitor in there too which is vital to the operation.  Of course it's possible you have some sort of electronic conversion, but I believe an '84 would normally have had a points type distributor.

[mullet]

You may benefit from a cheap dwell meter(Google it)and then you will know what the points are doing.Whislt using Google look up Kettering or points ignition.It is a very(very) simple system which is shrouded in magic.Steve..

Thanks Sonscar.  Looks like a good investment to help keep this car going for some more years.  But isn't this only going to get readings if I get the engine running? 

[sonscar]

No,you measure the dwell while cranking.The points when on the flat part of the dissy cam are closed and connects the coil to earth thro thedissy body.As the engine turns the points ride the love of the cam and open,disconnecting the coil and causing it to discharge thro the high tension lead.It does this a lot.The dwell is the percentage of the time they are closed(I think)
The rotor connects the spark from the cap center to the post of hopefully the correct plug.As I said it is very,very simple.Use Google,did I mention it is very simple.Enjoy,Steve..

[mullet]

 

Hi LPlus.  Quite a newbie to electronics on this car I'm afraid (more into the mechanics side).  So forgive me, but what do you mean by "I take it you have cleaned and gapped the points if it has them?"?  If all the spade-connectors, I did clean them up and they all seem to fit snug.  Except that yellow/white (picture B), as cannot access it just yet.

The points inside the distributor under the distributor cap which open and close to make the coil produce a spark.  There's a capacitor in there too which is vital to the operation.  Of course it's possible you have some sort of electronic conversion, but I believe an '84 would normally have had a points type distributor.

 

Hi Lplus.  I think (apart from my own USB addition) that the wiring is original. I can never be sure, but just looking at components and wiring and how everything seems to be taped using the same tape, I think it's all original.  So based on the voltage and resistance readings, do you think we are narrowing it down to the distributor?  As this all kicked off with the jumpstarting, could the capacitor be damaged?  Is their a way to know, or should I take the distributor out?