53 replies to this topic

[koss]

i thought those frames had to go low down on the arms to help it steer

[Guess-Works.com]

Normally they connect to the bottom arms, which does not have any input on the steering, they rely on the castor angle ( if that's the right one ) which means the car has a tendancy to steer in the direction it's pointed. This is why some cars cannot be A frame towed as they dont do that.

[Nial]

So if the police stop me and take me to a weighbrige i should be ok

Except (I'm 95% certain) the max towing capacity's given by the book kerb weight of the tow car.

This is worth checking sooner rather than later.


Nial.

[*DJH*]

ps i have no where to keep a dozen donkeys

On Another Trailer

[koss]

Decided to ring vosa, If the trailer has brakes it can be 85% of the total weight of the vehicle towing
i also asked about the A frame, with an an A frame you can only tow 50% of the weight of the towing vehicle unless you make a braked A frame to operate the brakes on the car being towed then its back to 85%

[Jimmyarm]

You could get a flat bed transit with all the money you will spend putting this together !

Edit: Just noticed you dont want to get a van as you dont have space with the three minis, well just keep one on the van all the time !

Edited by Jimmyarm, 04 December 2006 - 03:09 PM.

[edjohnson]

this really aint gonna happen

the max wait you can tow is 85%of the un laden weight of the tow vehicle.

Other wise you could tow a trailer in a transit that was fully loaded, that weighed 2800 kilos

meaning the train weight of the entire thing would be well over 6 tons.

Not the kind of thing to be encouraged

and how safe is a mini gonna be with all that weight in, on, around, and behind??

i really think you need a braked a frame or a volvo!!

[koss]

A braked A frame it is going to be

Jimmyarm Posted Today, 02:05 PM
You could get a flat bed transit with all the money you will spend putting this together !

Edit: Just noticed you dont want to get a van as you dont have space with the three minis, well just keep one on the van all the time !
koss Posted Today, 01:15 PM

jimmy i am trying to keep the cost down, i allready have a 1275 mayfair, an A frame will cost me around £100 to put together. a recovery truck + insurance/tax, and it wont fit in the garage.
Its not a lot of money.

I only wanted to know how to get more torque :'(

Edited by koss, 04 December 2006 - 07:48 PM.

[Silicon Skum]

Ok, not an expert or anything here, just thinking out loud....

I'm sure the kerb weight of the *later* minis is around 690 - 700Kg, giving an 85% tow weight of about 586.5Kg. depending on what the car being towed weighs, I think it's reasonable that a trailor of some sort could be used that is lightweight (space frame?, no panels etc.).

Maybe something like this transporter dolly: (but modified to have brakes - giving 85% tow weight...?)

http://www.trailers....ilers/00190|ARM

I did a little search about towing trailers and dollies that have brakes or can apply the vehicle brakes and found this interesting design:

The Solomatic Sovereign is the total high integrity 'A' frame for one man towing. Not only does it tow efficiently, but it applies the brakes smoothly, safely and automatically during deceleration.

A remote control cable, attached to the coupling on the SOVEREIGN, is passed through a ½" gap in the window of the towed vehicle and attached to a device which is fitted to the brake pedal. Connections are simple and easy, only taking a further 3 to 4 minutes to fit after connecting the 'A' frame.

http://www.trealestr...ry_trailers.php

I'm sure it could be possible to buy, make or mod an A frame or dolly type trailer that can apply brakes. I belive the trailer requires a 50% braking efficiency, so this could be done electricaly from the brake light signal of the tow car (from the trailer's "plug"), or from inertia (over run) on the trailer hitch. Also posible to connect it straight up to the brake lines of the tow car, just as long as the trailer is a "perminant" fixture to the car, just by adding a very long flexi pipe.

I think this CAN be done, it just depends on how much cash you are willing to chuck at it.

SS

[Sprocket]

Decided to ring vosa, If the trailer has brakes it can be 85% of the total weight of the vehicle towing

Note that this is the Max Gross Weight, not the weight of the car with everything and anything you can load it with to get it as heavy as possible.

Still recon you'll be struggling to get it under these weights

[edjohnson]

No mini manufactured after 1997 can tow, its not classed in the european regulations of nonsense

all mini's before this date are exempt becuse they were mad before the rules came into force

i dont think anyone wash rubbishing you idea koss, the big torque engine is an interesting subject, no one wanted you getting in trouble with mr plod.

Good luck with the racing and a frame

ed

[koss]

1995 mini mayfair 1275 carbd 686kg empty - 15% =583.1
zcars monte under 500kg

[maph2]

also don't forget that for your tow car, you'll need to have extra cooling capacity and braking performance with the extra weight.

[Geehawk]

From the National Trailer and Towing association website.

An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

And DOT stuff

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

Edited by Geehawk, 05 December 2006 - 10:41 AM.

[flamejob]

Holy Moly (or however you spell it).. are the cops really going to know this much? What about all those winnebagos you see towing smarts, BIMIs (one of which I am proud to say I passed doing over 130mph) and A Classes with A frames? I'm sure they don't get stopped by plod.