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Anyone Any Experience Of Minispares Evolution Pistons?

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#1 Mini ManannĂ¡n

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:33 AM

I'm getting my 1275 re-sleeved.  I'd like to go back to standard but I'm finding it impossible to find a standard piston with a 3 or 4 piece oil ring in a standard size.  I can get some standard sized Hypertec pistons from Mr Moke in NSW but it seems a bit ludicrous to be sending off to Australia for parts.

 

I don't know how I missed them (I thought I'd looked everywhere I can think off)  but I recently these jobbies under my nose: http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

Has anyone experience of NPR rings?

Are they 3 piece oil rings?

Are the rings a metric or an imperial size?

 

I've found some horror stories on't t'interweb about Nippon rings being as soft as **** so I don't want to be tearing the engine down again in another few thousand miles.



#2 Cooperman

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 10:09 AM

Have you tried F.W.Thornton in Shrewsbury. They are top piston suppliers.



#3 Dusky

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:15 AM

Any reason you dont want to use the 21253 pistons?

#4 Cooperman

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 02:41 PM

The 21253 is an excellent piston and will take fairly high comp ratio and 7000 rpm.

#5 Mini ManannĂ¡n

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 03:12 PM

Any reason you dont want to use the 21253 pistons?

 

 

Because they are a imperial ring size Dusky



#6 Mini ManannĂ¡n

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 03:51 PM

Have you tried F.W.Thornton in Shrewsbury. They are top piston suppliers.

 

I have indeed Peter, they only have Nural pistons for the 1275 which I'm avoiding because of the imperial sizes and the one piece oil ring.



#7 Cooperman

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 03:57 PM

What is wrong with the ring size of the 21253? I have often used them and they are good.

#8 Dusky

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 05:13 PM

I dont see the problem with imperial sizes,but i must be missing something..

Edited by Dusky, 02 March 2018 - 05:14 PM.


#9 Spider

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 05:23 PM

I think Tim has his wires a little crossed there. The AE Pistons all use a metric ring these days and until a very recent discovery, one was 'locked' in to using their rings. There are loads of other - better - rings about but all based on the more common (outside of AE) Imperial Ring sizes.

 

Without equal, I've always noted higher oil consumption on engines running the 2 piece oil rings that come with the AE sets and many builders have had them smoke from the outset. Looking at the design of them, it's easy to see why.

 

Further to this, it's at odds with modern engine designs. All others are going to thinner rings these days, for better sealing and lower oil consumption, yet the very design of the 2 piece oil rings goes the other way and in a huge way at that.



#10 Cooperman

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 09:01 PM

There is a company in Arizona who make piston rings called 'Total Seal'. They have a gapless second ring and the oil consumption and compression is improved. I used them on a set of Karl schmidt pistons I once had in my Cooper 'S' and really did notice the difference. Apparently the F1 Air Racing guys use them in their engines.

I am guessing they are imperial size, being a US made produce, but I think they also do metric.

It is some years since I needed any special rings, so you might want to look them up and contact them.



#11 Earwax

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Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:00 PM

my 2 cents FWIW

 

For a standard type build good old Hastings rings ( which usually come with Hypatech  or hypertech never sure of spelling)  are good. 

 

Dont go four piece ring pack, again in my opinion you would be going back about 30 years developmentally.

 

The NPR rings ( nippon) are usually thin ring pack, and are also good.- do they give slightly less power loss?.... probably ( would love to be able to back to back test things like this to get evidence)  but being thinner possibly not quite as long lasting  ( again a guess )

 

 

Pay good attention to ring gaps and a good run in/bed in procedure and probably all of the available offerings will give good service over a long lifetime.



#12 Cooperman

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 12:16 AM

Total Seal rings:

 

[email protected]



#13 Spider

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 08:34 AM

my 2 cents FWIW

 

For a standard type build good old Hastings rings ( which usually come with Hypatech  or hypertech never sure of spelling)  are good. 

 

Dont go four piece ring pack, again in my opinion you would be going back about 30 years developmentally.

 

The NPR rings ( nippon) are usually thin ring pack, and are also good.- do they give slightly less power loss?.... probably ( would love to be able to back to back test things like this to get evidence)  but being thinner possibly not quite as long lasting  ( again a guess )

 

 

Pay good attention to ring gaps and a good run in/bed in procedure and probably all of the available offerings will give good service over a long lifetime.

 

The Hypertec Pistons, as supplied, come with no rings. Depending on who you buy them from will depend on what, if any rings are supplied with them. I have used the Hastings rings with good success, but prefer Grant Rings.

 

In regards to the Oil Rings, BMC themselves originally fitted the 2 Piece Oil Rings to cars up to about 1964 - 1965. Here's an 850 Piston and Ring set from the 1962 Workshop Manual (not the best source I acknowledge, but I don't keep them and I don't have a photo);-

 

yhInIHU.jpg

 

 

 

 

However, they did have loads of warranty claims due to excessive Oil Consumption from these type or Rings. In 1965 they issued the following Technical Bulletin advising the swap to 4 piece Oil Rings to reduce Oil Consumption;-

 

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NMnr1hv.jpg

 

4 piece Rings were offered as while they can be fitted to new Pistons, they work well on used Pistons (probably better than any other Ring Type). Might be '30 year old technology' however, they are streets ahead of the 100+ year old 2 piece ring design. likewise, 3 piece Oil Rings work well as the oil rails, like in the 4 piece types ate very thin and so can conform way easier and better than the fat 2 piece types.

 

3 and 4 piece Oil Rings were swapped to Production around 1964 - 1965.

 

Even on the Mini Spares site for ring sets with the 3 piece oil rings they state;-

 

" steel ring set with 3 piece oil rings as preferred by engine builders for P21253 pistons "

 

http://www.minispare...|Back to search

 

Remember too that our Engines are from a pre-1950 design and while engine technology has well moved on from then, largely, we can't stray too far in some regards from the technology of the day when our Engines were designed. As our engines are well under square (except the 970) they don't go too well with the very thin rings of current technology.

 

I think it also far to say that we are limited for ring widths to what the pistons will accept - not a good idea to fit a rings that flops about in the ring groove, so we're all somewhat 'locked in' in this regards. The original Austin / BMC / Leyland pistons were full 'imperial' pistons and the rings were an imperial thickness. In later years, to save costs AE took it on themselves to metricate the Ring Thicknesses to save costs (they could cut them from the same sheet as they were supplying for other metric cars), where as the aftermarket Pistons held on to the original imperial rings sizes. This then locked one in for a long while to using AE Rings, if you had AE Pistons, where as all other brands of Pistons and Rings could be interchanged (eg, the Hypetec Pistons and the Hastings & Grant Rings).

 

The 2 piece Oil Rings are cheaper to manufacture and less timely to fit, so a further cost saving there.



#14 grizzler73

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:08 AM

There is a interesting article from Kieth Calver site.
https://www.calverst...um-performance/
I have heard good things about total seal rings, they are at the more expensive end of the scale though.

#15 Mini ManannĂ¡n

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Posted 03 March 2018 - 11:38 PM

Yup, I had my metrics and imperials A about F :-)  Whatever, I'm starting to get out of my depth here...

 

  After the last build which smooked from the get-go (we're blaming the machine-shop over here) this time it'll be going away to get re-sleeved and balanced at Rob Walkers.

  I know what my engine builder wants, he wants the 'full skirt'  like the Minispares Evolution and the Omegas and he wants 3 piece oil rings.  I can't find any standard or +20 Omegas in the country until MED get a batch in sometime in April.  Sooo, I seem to be left with either the Minispares Evolution in +20 or Hypertec in standard from NSW.  Or... wait til the end of April...

 

It's a dilema







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