157 replies to this topic

[Dan]

a secondary hand action" to get out (or something equally ridiculous)

Not ridiculous at all. Do you think people make these rules up without thinking about it? Many years of testing and experiments have shown that in the event of a crash, people almost always forget how to release any seatbelt that doesn't undo with a simple button push. You probably think you're very familiar with it because you use it every day but believe me, it is very likely that in a crash you would forget. It happens in air crashes, and lets face it the passenger seatbelts in aircraft aren't exactly complicated. It happens in racecars, even though the drivers use their belts every day and are well used to crashing. How often do you see a driver stuck in their car for a few minutes? Until a marshal releases them or they get their composure back and remember how to do it. Also think about your passenger, they may not have done the course in how your seatbelts work before you crash into the back of the car in front. Imagine you're unconcious, they aren't and the car is burning or trapped on the carriageway with the passenger door facing traffic. They don't know how the belt works and can't get out. Finally, think about the emergency services who put themselves at risk to haul your unconcious body out of the burning car. Frankly if it comes to a choice between my wife (a Paramedic) having to spend a few extra minutes at risk in your burning car trying to get you free because your belt doesn't comply with the law or her standing back and watching you burn, I know what I'd choose.

Another reason to use E marked belts is that they are constructed differently. E marked belts use 2" webbing that stretches a bit in a crash and decelerates you. FIA spec belts use 3" static webbing that simply does not stretch. Yes it might look better if that's the style you're after but it will do a lot more damage to you in a crash. That's why you must always have all of the belt in use and not simply some parts of it, the more straps you have the more it spreads the load over your body. If the harness comes with 5 straps, use all of them every day and not just the three that make it look like a normal seatbelt as many people do.

[Globule]

a secondary hand action" to get out (or something equally ridiculous)

Not ridiculous at all. Do you think people make these rules up without thinking about it? Many years of testing and experiments have shown that in the event of a crash, people almost always forget how to release any seatbelt that doesn't undo with a simple button push.

I must admit, that didn't actually occur to me at any time when i was looking at harnesses, i didn't even read about that anywhere until you just said it, i see why they do it now! To me it just seems that with the other type of harnesses, you have to try unhook your arms and with the aero ones you don't, if you broke your arm for example, trying to unhook it would be near on impossible, whereas with a twist-release you only need 1 hand to get out, i guess it has pro's and con's for each, can't go wrong with standard seatbelts!

[taffy1967]

if I had a pre 90s Mini, and quite possibly some MPi doors with side impact bars (do they fit to earlier Mk3/4/5 shells?). This I'd consider much more safer and most probably lighter than 50kg of steel work and buckets, et al.

Yes they do fit earlier shells and don't brand new Heritage shells come complete with side impact beams installed too?

[Burnard]

Frankly if it comes to a choice between my wife (a Paramedic) having to spend a few extra minutes at risk in your burning car trying to get you free because your belt doesn't comply with the law or her standing back and watching you burn, I know what I'd choose.

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

[Shifty]

Frankly if it comes to a choice between my wife (a Paramedic) having to spend a few extra minutes at risk in your burning car trying to get you free because your belt doesn't comply with the law or her standing back and watching you burn, I know what I'd choose.

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

Thats a great idea, also why not keep a disc cutter handy as well, just in case they need to cut you out of the car as well?

(this would be placed in an obvious and accessable place as well)

[Burnard]

Frankly if it comes to a choice between my wife (a Paramedic) having to spend a few extra minutes at risk in your burning car trying to get you free because your belt doesn't comply with the law or her standing back and watching you burn, I know what I'd choose.

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

Thats a great idea, also why not keep a disc cutter handy as well, just in case they need to cut you out of the car as well?

(this would be placed in an obvious and accessable place as well)

Fine, but done come crying to me when your dead!
that was a serious suggestion rather than telling all these people to go out and buy cheaper harness's, which have the normal e-marked belts after haveing spent 100+ on FIA race harness's.

To be frank, the paramedics wouldnt be allowed near a burning car because of heath and f-ing saftey. so the flames would be out before they would even try to release you, so they wouldnt be battleing against flames to try and release you.

[Dan]

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

Well of course they can cut you out but nothing is as quick as pressing a button, especially on a multi point harness with more than one belt to cut and how do you know they will be able to get to all the belts that need cutting after the car has crashed? So you're trapped in your car waiting until the Fire Brigade can cut all the doors and roof off just because one of the straps is hard to reach. And yes they would use their own cutters because that nice little plastic one you got from Halfords and fitted to a bracket in a prominant place has probably been ejected from the car and thrown down the road or at least has disappeared somehwere into the wreckage in the car.

[Shifty]

Frankly if it comes to a choice between my wife (a Paramedic) having to spend a few extra minutes at risk in your burning car trying to get you free because your belt doesn't comply with the law or her standing back and watching you burn, I know what I'd choose.

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

Thats a great idea, also why not keep a disc cutter handy as well, just in case they need to cut you out of the car as well?

(this would be placed in an obvious and accessable place as well)

Fine, but done come crying to me when your dead!
that was a serious suggestion rather than telling all these people to go out and buy cheaper harness's, which have the normal e-marked belts after haveing spent 100+ on FIA race harness's.

To be frank, the paramedics wouldnt be allowed near a burning car because of heath and f-ing saftey. so the flames would be out before they would even try to release you, so they wouldnt be battleing against flames to try and release you.

Still don't get it do you?

The argument was (as I understood it) that the idea behind the easy release belts was so you could release yourself easily in case of an accident.

The type of harness that required a "Technique" to release could be dangerous in the event of an accident as the person strapped in may not have the presence of mind to release themselves.

Also the previous argument was that for the belts to be effective you needed to be tightly strapped in which meant reaching for items/controls within the car could be difficult(especially if you're dangling upside down)

Hence a cutter/hammer/disc cutter may be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in an emergency.

[Globule]

Isnt that why you would keep a harness cutter/window breaker in an obvious, and accessable place, so if you really are stuck, you can cut your self out, and if the emergancy serves cant get u out, they can use it, although im pretty sure they have there own.

I think it's not a bad idea to keep one of them in the car, but like Dan says, it will most likely go flying in a crash so you would need to improvise a better form of clasp for it. I am/was thinking about having an automatic centrepunch in the car incase i need to get out in a hurry and need to break glass, it's only small and relatively simple to make a clasp for it that won't let it go in a hurry, just something i never got round to!

I think thats been a bit harsh on Burnard as well, he was just offering a suggestion after all, which i think is a perfectly valid one!

[Dan]

To be frank, the paramedics wouldnt be allowed near a burning car because of heath and f-ing saftey. so the flames would be out before they would even try to release you, so they wouldnt be battleing against flames to try and release you.

Interesting point of view, you're from Reading so you're one of the people my wife has to look after. The Ambulance is almost always there first matey, usually before Trumpton and a LOOOOONG time before the Police. Do you really think they won't try to help you before the Fire Brigade get there?

FIA harnesses are not safer in a road car than road harnesses are, I made that point above. They are more dangerous than road harnesses. Race cars crash in controlled conditions, there are marshals mere seconds away, all the traffic is stopped the instant there is a bad accident, the driver is in NOMEX clothing, the car is safe and contains nothing that can fly about and knock the driver out and most importantly he is wearing a helmet. Race car parts are for race cars.

Edited by Dan, 10 February 2009 - 09:14 PM.

[Globule]

Hence a cutter/hammer/disc cutter may be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in an emergency.

Could just mount it somewhere more fitting for a possibly vital piece of equipment..

Interesting point of view, you're from Reading so you're one of the people my wife has to look after. The Ambulance is almost always there first matey, usually before Trumpton and a LOOOOONG time before the Police. Do you really think they won't try to help you before the Fire Brigade get there?

When i crashed, the fire brigade were there stupidly quick, we must have been out the car for less than a minute before they arrived, the ambulance was there pretty much right after, and the Police arrived a good 10-15 minutes later, the only bad "service" (if that's the right term or not) was from the Police, the ambulance treatment i could not fault in the slightest, i know its not from the same area as you Dan but still, maybe they are just trained better!

[Burnard]

Still don't get it do you?

The argument was (as I understood it) that the idea behind the easy release belts was so you could release yourself easily in case of an accident.

The type of harness that required a "Technique" to release could be dangerous in the event of an accident as the person strapped in may not have the presence of mind to release themselves.

Another point made arround the same time as that one, is that if you use the car every day, the technique will be second nature to you, just like pressing the button on a standard one. so by the time someone with a normal belt has gained enough composure to undo the standard belt, so will the person who has the one that needs the technique, its like ANYTHING, do it enough times, and you can do it without looking, like touch typeing or useing a tv remote in the dark, its as complicated as *melon*, but you do it sooooo many times that it is second nature, and you can do it no matter what state of mind u are in.

[Globule]

Another point made arround the same time as that one, is that if you use the car every day, the technique will be second nature to you, just like pressing the button on a standard one.

As Dan said though, think about the passenger, they won't have used that car day in day out so would not react the same as you!

[Shifty]

Still don't get it do you?

The argument was (as I understood it) that the idea behind the easy release belts was so you could release yourself easily in case of an accident.

The type of harness that required a "Technique" to release could be dangerous in the event of an accident as the person strapped in may not have the presence of mind to release themselves.

Another point made arround the same time as that one, is that if you use the car every day, the technique will be second nature to you, just like pressing the button on a standard one. so by the time someone with a normal belt has gained enough composure to undo the standard belt, so will the person who has the one that needs the technique, its like ANYTHING, do it enough times, and you can do it without looking, like touch typeing or useing a tv remote in the dark, its as complicated as *melon*, but you do it sooooo many times that it is second nature, and you can do it no matter what state of mind u are in.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore as you seem to have already made your mind up.

However try and perform an action thats 2nd nature when you're scared, panicking, upside down and then see how natural it is.

Normal rules don't apply in those situations, I know this from experience.

Edited by shiftyseamus, 10 February 2009 - 09:21 PM.

[Burnard]

which is the EXACT reason, that i NEVER EVER planned to have a full race harness on the passenger side.
before you say anything, i never planned on a roll cage or bucket seat for the passanger either, it was always going to be a black or white cobra clubman with red pipeing, and head rest.