61 replies to this topic

[minivanman]

Like stewart says, he's got a point. If you remove the rose-tinted eyewear, the mini isn't actually very good when you hold it up against modern cars. They're faster, quieter, handle better, more reliable and safer. We love them for their character, not because they are the best car in the world. If the british car industry hadn't been so monumentally crap the mini would have been updated properly, not just cobbled together to get through whatever legislation they had to pass.

[dsgoody]

I agree with minivanman. Clarkson is right. The mini is very old and outdated, heck the engine was first seen in 1951 and was being produced all the way through to 2000, albeit revised and with MPI strapped onto it. Like minivanman, I own a Mini not because it's quiet or comfy but because it's immense fun and I actually like the fact it's loud and alert.

[bamby]

With that in mind, I think there should be a national referendum, maybe with an accompanying TV show, where participants are invited to nominate one thing from British life that should now be put in the dustbin. I’d like to kick things off by nominating the Labour party.

Very well Mr Clarkson ... can i have a Bin bag thats big enough for you to fit in then ??
To be honnest its what makes us, us.

Pft! !

[taffy1967]

he contradicts himself

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You forgot about this one: -

BqCeoKTHFtM

But the Mini wasn't crap by 1965 as it was still winning the Monte Carlo Rally and was also being driven by 'The Beatles', 'Mick Jagger' and 'Peter Sellers' etc.

I just think Clarkson opens his big ugly cake hole without giving things much thought sometimes. Plus he loves being controversial and getting his face and views in the press. Basically he's just another old fart and a bore.

As for the classic Mini, well each to their own but I'd still say it's the best car ever made since you don't have to break any speed limits to get a buzz. Plus modern cars are dull as dishwater.

[taffy1967]

This recent Autocar page speaks volumes too: -

http://autocar.co.uk...-any-speed.aspx

[minivanman]

As for the classic Mini, well each to their own but I'd still say it's the best car ever made since you don't have to break any speed limits to get a buzz. Plus modern cars are dull as dishwater.

Like I said, modern cars are beter on paper, its the character of a mini that makes it great.

[Dan]

More half formed opinions based on skim reading and a lack of knowledge of the underlying facts then.


By the way it's you lot I'm talking about, not well known lifelong fan of the Mini Jeremy Clarkson. He's been a fan of Minis for a long time and raved about them on TV, written the foreword to several Mini books and has pointed out many times how much more fun they are to drive than many other cars. He even says that in the article you are all currently attacking and he knows it's one of the few small cars that tall people can drive which he refers to often.

He's right, the Mini wasn't kept up to date and by the mid to late 60s it was becoming tired and outdated. The facelifts never went far enough to keep it up with the competition and it slowly declined over the years. We all love them but few of us were there when they were launched and so few of us realise just how revolutionary they were at the time and how conventional they rapidly became. Initially it was left to drift because BMC didn't realise how interesting it was and only saw it as another model intended for use as a family second car. Later it was left alone because Leyland were beurocratic fools and eventually simply because it was seen as an institution as Jezza says.

He's wrong about ketchup bottles though. Britain mostly buys plastic squeezable bottles while it's Germany that sitcks resolutely to the old hexagonal glass type.

Edited by Dan, 16 May 2009 - 09:26 AM.

[Ethel]

I still think it has as much to do with the contrary grumpy old man persona he makes his living from. I'm with Taffy that it's blatant nonsense to suggest the Mini was out of date at the exact time its motorsport success was at its zenith.

I'm grateful the Mini resisted any serious development and redesigning, it was, and remains, an extreme design; any "development" could only compromise the very qualities that make it so good at what it does best - still.

In some ways it's still an innovator as an approach to personal transport. That MINI roadster illustrates it. It alludes to the many Mini specials: Broadspeeds, Minisprints etc. Only, a factory built "special" will never have the same exclusivity or be as special as those that are still being built in small workshops and private garages based on the real Mini's accessible and adaptable design.

[skaterava]

im probably one of the biggest fans of Top gear and i usually find that Clarkson's comments are quite correct.

However, he's made a mistake here in using the Mini's 50th anniversary as a wrong example onto a different topic. Yes, he's correct and it's true Britain has some problems with letting go of the past and traditions, even when those traditions are hopelessly outdated. Its true, the Mini is left trailing behind its modern counterparts in terms of performance, safety, practicality, and comfort, but Clarkson misses the fact that the Mini is still cherished today because it has its good points. It's got soul, which most cars today don't have, and it's one of the most fun cars to drive, ever.

Clarkson wanted to make a point of discarding some old British traditions in order to modernise and keep up with everyone else. Why this means we shouln't have Mini's though, is pretty stupid. It's a free country and if you'd rather drive a Mini, you're not infringing on the rest of the country's rights, are you?

[Mini_Magic]

More half formed opinions based on skim reading and a lack of knowledge of the underlying facts then.


By the way it's you lot I'm talking about, not well known lifelong fan of the Mini Jeremy Clarkson. He's been a fan of Minis for a long time and raved about them on TV, written the foreword to several Mini books and has pointed out many times how much more fun they are to drive than many other cars. He even says that in the article you are all currently attacking and he knows it's one of the few small cars that tall people can drive which he refers to often.

He's right, the Mini wasn't kept up to date and by the mid to late 60s it was becoming tired and outdated. The facelifts never went far enough to keep it up with the competition and it slowly declined over the years. We all love them but few of us were there when they were launched and so few of us realise just how revolutionary they were at the time and how conventional they rapidly became. Initially it was left to drift because BMC didn't realise how interesting it was and only saw it as another model intended for use as a family second car. Later it was left alone because Leyland were beurocratic fools and eventually simply because it was seen as an institution as Jezza says.

Finally, some common sense. I thought everyone knew that he has always been a massive fan of the Mini. Just because you love something, does not mean you can't see its flaws. I do think there are two sides to this article though. On the one hand he's making really quite a good point about us Brits clinging on to heritage and living in the past. On the other hand he's also being slightly controversial, because it's funny and it works every single time. Just look through this thread for some evidence.

I especially love the comment about having a Mini as a first car, Clarkson says all the time that it's perfect as a first car. He even said once on Top Gear that everyone should learn to drive in one.

Edited by Black Civic, 16 May 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[taffy1967]

To be honest I don't think the people in this country really help support our industries, as for a start we don't have Rover any more and neither is there a thriving film industry either.

Okay I'm not saying we should be as insular as the average Yank, but we should be a bit more supportive like say the French are with their products and films?

Okay there are the heritage bores who go on and on about preserving castles and mansions etc, but the vast majority of Brits probably couldn't give a toss about this countries heritage. I mean even the psychedelic coach that appeared in The Beatles 1967 TV/Movie 'Magical Mystery Tour' now resides in America as an exhibit.

Sorry but shouldn't it be in a museum here instead? It is part of our heritage after all and then there's the fact so many classic British films aren't seeing the light of day because their now owned by American film companies who don't see them as relevant and so their sitting in an archive collecting dust instead.

As for the great British Mini, well from the mid 1980's onwards it was the Japanese who helped keep it in production, since they were the ones who bought them in large numbers. Most Brits assumed the Mini died and got replaced by the MiniMetro in 1980 and certainly wouldn't consider buying one regardless of how many times the famous 'Minis Have Feelings Too' Xmas commercial got aired.

As for the Mini becoming dated, well it wasn't until the mid 1960's that it really took off as up to then most people thought it was a gimmick and not to be taken seriously. So once it regularly brought home all the trophies in most form of Motorsport including of course the regular Monte Carlo Rally wins, people actually took notice and it became the car everyone wanted to own.

So to say it was rubbish by 1965 is utter tripe as the 1960's were the Minis bread and butter days and owning a Mini Cooper S was just as cool as owning an Aston Martin or an E Type Jaguar (all of which starred in the original Italian Job movie back in 1969, even though the Mini was the real star and it had really earned it's place in that film), but most people were quite happy to buy a bog standard Mini saloon anyway.

I can see the merit in the Mini being replaced at the end of the 1960's and Issigonis being allowed to have his way and introduce his 'Project 9X' replacement Mini. That way BL would stay ahead of the competition and have a small hatchback on the market long before Fiat, VW, Renault or Ford etc.

But BL were clever and introduced the Mini Clubman instead and so they just sold the same product all over again in a repackaged form. Although during the 1970's most buyers were more than happy to buy a round faced Mini 1000.

Either way they produced and sold more Minis in 1977 than they did in 1966 when the Minis image was at it's peak after the infamous Monte Carlo Rally disqualifications. Plus there's the fact the Mini became the best selling car in Britain for a short time during the mid 1970's when Britain was going through another fuel and/or oil crises (even though BL chairman Donald Stokes was furious as he wanted cars like the Allegro, Marina or Princess to sell and not the by then ancient Mini).

Right well I'm waffling a bit now, but the 1960's really were the Minis decade and Mary Quant even named a sexy/groovy ladies fashion accessory after it. Yes the 1960's, back when all the eyes of the world were on us because we had the best music, fashions and cars. Shame it all went pair shaped during the 1970's? Okay the Mini might have seemed old fashioned by the end of the 1970's and into the 1980's, but it was still an incredibly good little car and most motoring magazine testers sang it's praises to the hilt.

So on the one hand Clarkson is right, but on the other hand when you think about it he's missed the point and is just out to get a reaction. Especially when you consider the fact the Mini was Rovers greatest export model and created a lot of good will around the world.

Plus there's the fact that if the Mini was so terrible by the mid 1960's, why then did BMW decide to take that name and try to reinvent it decades later?

Edited by taffy1967, 16 May 2009 - 08:37 PM.

[taffy1967]

More half formed opinions based on skim reading and a lack of knowledge of the underlying facts then.


By the way it's you lot I'm talking about, not well known lifelong fan of the Mini Jeremy Clarkson. He's been a fan of Minis for a long time and raved about them on TV, written the foreword to several Mini books and has pointed out many times how much more fun they are to drive than many other cars. He even says that in the article you are all currently attacking and he knows it's one of the few small cars that tall people can drive which he refers to often.

He's right, the Mini wasn't kept up to date and by the mid to late 60s it was becoming tired and outdated. The facelifts never went far enough to keep it up with the competition and it slowly declined over the years. We all love them but few of us were there when they were launched and so few of us realise just how revolutionary they were at the time and how conventional they rapidly became. Initially it was left to drift because BMC didn't realise how interesting it was and only saw it as another model intended for use as a family second car. Later it was left alone because Leyland were beurocratic fools and eventually simply because it was seen as an institution as Jezza says.

He's wrong about ketchup bottles though. Britain mostly buys plastic squeezable bottles while it's Germany that sitcks resolutely to the old hexagonal glass type.

But most Mini buyers didn't want the Mini to change. Even the Twin-Point Minis were kitted out to the hilt with modern safety features and yet they did all they could to keep the Mini looks untouched.

BL and Rover knew they'd shoot themselves in the foot if they completely altered the classic Mini or changed that cheeky face in any way and so they just milked it for all it's worth for years.

[taffy1967]

I still think it has as much to do with the contrary grumpy old man persona he makes his living from. I'm with Taffy that it's blatant nonsense to suggest the Mini was out of date at the exact time its motorsport success was at its zenith.

I'm grateful the Mini resisted any serious development and redesigning, it was, and remains, an extreme design; any "development" could only compromise the very qualities that make it so good at what it does best - still.

In some ways it's still an innovator as an approach to personal transport. That MINI roadster illustrates it. It alludes to the many Mini specials: Broadspeeds, Minisprints etc. Only, a factory built "special" will never have the same exclusivity or be as special as those that are still being built in small workshops and private garages based on the real Mini's accessible and adaptable design.

Exactly and a few weeks back I gave a mate a lift in my Mini (he'd never been in a real Mini in his life) and he asked how come everyone wasn't driving about in original Minis as he said it was fantastic. Okay I'd whizzed around a few bends and roundabouts etc prior to him asking, but it's still nice to hear praise from those who know nothing about our favourite little friends or pets or even substitute children?

Yes don't forget a Mini is for life and not just for the fun of it!

[taffy1967]

im probably one of the biggest fans of Top gear and i usually find that Clarkson's comments are quite correct.

However, he's made a mistake here in using the Mini's 50th anniversary as a wrong example onto a different topic. Yes, he's correct and it's true Britain has some problems with letting go of the past and traditions, even when those traditions are hopelessly outdated. Its true, the Mini is left trailing behind its modern counterparts in terms of performance, safety, practicality, and comfort, but Clarkson misses the fact that the Mini is still cherished today because it has its good points. It's got soul, which most cars today don't have, and it's one of the most fun cars to drive, ever.

Clarkson wanted to make a point of discarding some old British traditions in order to modernise and keep up with everyone else. Why this means we shouln't have Mini's though, is pretty stupid. It's a free country and if you'd rather drive a Mini, you're not infringing on the rest of the country's rights, are you?

Well if we all listened to Prince Charles we'd all be forced to live in medieval mock Tudor hovels, with the rich and famous living in grand mansions and there wouldn't be a modernist sky scraper in sight as he hates them.

So yes I'm glad to see Britain getting a bit modern (okay they got it wrong back in the 1960's (one of the few bad things to happen) and where as high rise hotels and office blocks got built to remarkably high standards, many council high-rise apartment blocks got constructed as fast and as cheap as possible and they used blancmange and custard to build them instead of reinforced concrete. Well just google up 'Ronan Point' images and see where it all went wrong.) and inner cities are getting shiny new apartment blocks and complete make-overs.

We shouldn't lose our own identity, or feel non-pc for being proud of our country (not an easy thing to do considering the state we're currently in?). But I hate having things rammed down my throat and I'm not terribly patriotic about being Welsh, in fact I'm a rubbish Welshman because I don't work down a coal mine, sing in a male voice choir or even like Rugby. Yes shock horror I hate most sport and I love lots of odd things like, well the original Mini.

Nobody rammed that down my throat, no there was a time when my parents actually begged me to buy a more modern larger car as I kept crashing my first Mini. But 25 years on I still adore driving a Mini and I'd just die of boredom if I was forced to drive anything else.

Oh god I'm starting to bore myself now. Anyway we can all shout our mouths off sometimes without really thinking about it and Mr Clarkson is notorious for doing just that and that's why he has an army of pathetic followers who think he's funny and clever for sticking two fingers up to everything and everyone.

But he's not getting any younger and he's also starting to sound very sad and something of a caricature now.

Either way he can't take away all that the original Mini achieved in it's lifetime and neither can BMW. Thankfully most of us here aren't sheep and we have our own minds and think our own thoughts etc.

So don't worry about pratt's like Clarkson and don't be a sheep (and no comments on the sheep here in Taffyland either). lol

Edited by taffy1967, 16 May 2009 - 09:31 PM.

[taffy1967]

More half formed opinions based on skim reading and a lack of knowledge of the underlying facts then.


By the way it's you lot I'm talking about, not well known lifelong fan of the Mini Jeremy Clarkson. He's been a fan of Minis for a long time and raved about them on TV, written the foreword to several Mini books and has pointed out many times how much more fun they are to drive than many other cars. He even says that in the article you are all currently attacking and he knows it's one of the few small cars that tall people can drive which he refers to often.

He's right, the Mini wasn't kept up to date and by the mid to late 60s it was becoming tired and outdated. The facelifts never went far enough to keep it up with the competition and it slowly declined over the years. We all love them but few of us were there when they were launched and so few of us realise just how revolutionary they were at the time and how conventional they rapidly became. Initially it was left to drift because BMC didn't realise how interesting it was and only saw it as another model intended for use as a family second car. Later it was left alone because Leyland were beurocratic fools and eventually simply because it was seen as an institution as Jezza says.

Finally, some common sense. I thought everyone knew that he has always been a massive fan of the Mini. Just because you love something, does not mean you can't see its flaws. I do think there are two sides to this article though. On the one hand he's making really quite a good point about us Brits clinging on to heritage and living in the past. On the other hand he's also being slightly controversial, because it's funny and it works every single time. Just look through this thread for some evidence.

I especially love the comment about having a Mini as a first car, Clarkson says all the time that it's perfect as a first car. He even said once on Top Gear that everyone should learn to drive in one.

But it's flaws are just something else that makes it special as modern cars are dull and boring fridges on wheels that do a job and that's that. You have to seriously rag a modern jelly mould look car to get any kind of a buzz and that's a buzz that soon wears thin. Where as a Mini is incredibly good fun to drive at all speeds and I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it addictive and wears a silly grin on every journey?

As for clinging on to heritage, I don't see the Mini as an old castle or mill or whatever that needs preserving (okay some might). No, I just drive my Mini when I need a fix and I couldn't give a frig about heritage even though it is nice to now the Mini has a great history or a fantastic pedigree or whatever.

But none of that would matter if I didn't enjoy driving my Mini, or enjoy the whole Mini ownership experience and the door to new friendships and fun.

If you buy a new Fiesta, you don't get the same effect with hundreds of forums, clubs and events.

Anyway I saw the episode where he agreed that everyone should own a Mini to start off in (he was just agreeing with Will Young wasn't he?). But if the Mini had ceased production in 1965, that wouldn't be all that easy to achieve now though would it?

Edited by taffy1967, 16 May 2009 - 09:11 PM.