124 replies to this topic

[cooperdan]

Look at everyone getting alllll technical, trailing arms, weight distriibution, weight ratios... If only i had the time, Meh ill just drive it

[Cooperman]

The subject of this thread was Mini handling, not the road-holding characteristics.

Yeah but to be fair Uncle Cooperman, I really don't think that the vast majority of people actually are aware that there is a difference between the two. it's a very common misconception and I certainly didn't know that what I referred to as "handling" was actually "road holding", until you pointed it out on various threads here on TMF. It's clearly a bit of a "pet hate" of yours though, as you mention it here quite a lot.

When most people talk about how a car "handles", I think that they are probably actually talking about its "road holding", as you describe it. I maybe be wrong, but I would imagine that this thread is actually supposed to be about the road holding of the classic mini, even though it's entitled "do minis really handle that well".

You are absolutely right there.
When the Mini was introduced road-holding varied vastly between different cars due to their basic design. These days there are tyres which are so good that it is difficult to reach the limit of road-holding on the public road without entering the reals of dangerous driving. What Ethel says about the Mini in motorsport is correct too as on a smooth track the factors he mentions are so valid. On the public roads where the surfaces are bumpy (in comparison with a race track) the limitations of the Mini are suspension travel, or rather the lack of it. Road-holding is measured in 'G' and represents the centripetal force which the car/tyres is capable of achieving.
In terms of enjoyment and safety it is less important than 'handling' which is the way the car responds to the commands given to it by the driver. A good-handling car will be predictable in all conditions and on all surfaces. It will always do what the driver expects it to within its dynamic limits. I have had several cars where the road-holding was much better than my Minis, but none really handled any better than the Minis. But I have driven cars with better handling, e.g Escort Mk.1 Twin Cam.
In fact road-holding and handling are completely different and we do need to help others understand that which is why I return to it when I hear people talking 'handling' when I know they mean 'road-holding'. I always think of my rally 'S' which handles best on knobbly forest tyres but on which the road-holding on tarmac is poor and it slides around all over the place if driven hard (great fun though).

[ministar]

A good-handling car will be predictable in all conditions and on all surfaces. It will always do what the driver expects it to within its dynamic limits.

Exactly! Within its dynamic limits is pretty important!

[Kam]

You don't need to be a semi pro driver or even know what your talking about to know it handles well, its all down to personal opinion, look at how many people come back to a mini after having 'modern cars' how many of these people are semi or pro drivers? majority are just ordinary folk like you and me, I don't know any other car that makes an impact like that?

Simple fact is people love the classic mini as much for its handling (whatever your know how is) as its quirlkiness and cool factor - end of

[cooperdan]

You don't need to be a semi pro driver or even know what your talking about to know it handles well, its all down to personal opinion, look at how many people come back to a mini after having 'modern cars' how many of these people are semi or pro drivers? majority are just ordinary folk like you and me, I don't know any other car that makes an impact like that?

Simple fact is people love the classic mini as much for its handling (whatever your know how is) as its quirlkiness and cool factor - end of

Thank *******..... Bit common sense

[Ashlais]

The BEST description of a mini's handling is, Fun!

[AVV IT]

In fact road-holding and handling are completely different and we do need to help others understand that which is why I return to it when I hear people talking 'handling' when I know they mean 'road-holding'.

I think you might be banging your head against a brick wall with that one, but do carry on though, someone has to try and educate the great unwashed I suppose!!

[86mayfair]

Presumably an example would be that Yoko A032s have good grip and so give good road holding but fairly high soft sidewalls mean that the handling may not be as good because the feel through the wheel won't be as clear?

[CMXCVIII]

In fact road-holding and handling are completely different and we do need to help others understand that which is why I return to it when I hear people talking 'handling' when I know they mean 'road-holding'.

I think you might be banging your head against a brick wall with that one, but do carry on though, someone has to try and educate the great unwashed I suppose!!

When I was 18, back in the mid 1970s, all enthusiastic 18 year olds understood it from actually driving our cars and didn't seem to need educating

Maybe we didn't wash much but back then then we didn't have to suffer the mind-numbing, sense-diluting effects of ridiculously over-fat tyres and power assisted steering - let alone absolutely pathetic, feel-free electric power assisted steering or anti-lock brakes with emergency brake assistance. We didn't even have much air conditioning or central locking or electric windows!

Funnily enough, that's the exact motoring world the Mini was designed for and is part of! And funnily enough, although I have other cars too, that's why I rather enjoy driving my Mini and experiencing at every corner its simple, immediate response.

[CooperMad93]

I've driven my fair share of modern cars but I'm happier driving my mini just because its fun, and loud lol. It also holds a lot of sentimental value which I dont normally have with cars!

[Andyagl]

ive just got a mk1 Mazda MX5 and i got to say that the handling is absolutly spot on. But the only way i can say its any better than a Mini is that it soaks up bumps better. It terms of grip and how much you can throw it into a corner, then they are about the same.
I do like the rear wheel drive on the mx5 though, switching between understeer and oversteer by blipping the throttle round a roundabout.

[Cooperman]

One of the best examples of the difference between road-holding and handling is the Porsche 911. On a standard one the road-holding is absolutely superb, but the handling is quite poor and tricky for a less-experienced driver. On the rally 911's we used to reduce the road-holding by fitting a thicker rear anti-roll bar to make the car more naturally oversteer, raise the ride height a bit and set to dampers to a more optimum setting. Even then they never handled like, say a Mk.1 Escort which is arguably the best handling car ever.
To make my Minis handle I set then up accurately, use a maximum tyre width of 165, use adjustable dampers set medium-firm and run the tyre pressures at 32 psi all round. That seems to work OK and the handling is absolutely great. On a Mini Magazine 'group test' a while back my 'S' was deemed to be the best handling car there and was fastest on the 'handling' course.
At the end of the day, for a 54-year old design it has to be said that "Minis Are Marvellous!" In fact we should be comparing them with other late 50's cars where they are, quite simply, way ahead.

[ministar]

Would 32psi from cold, be a little dangerous when the tyres are hot from fastroad/track/rally driving? For the 'ring I dropped my pressures to 26psi at cold, and would raise up to produce an optimum handling? Or is it a case of road holding more important on tracks such as the 'ring? Knowing the cars handling, and increasing road holding are what most race mini's work to? Sprint etc?

For me personally it depends on how hard you are driving. Surely its a balance of the two, depending on application?

Edited by ministar, 28 March 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Cooperman]

For track work the ultimate road-holding is vital if good lap times are wanted. The handling on some racing cars is poor with, for example, heavy steering, but the roadholding can be phenominal. Minis are not too bad in this respect, but some saloon cars are very bad.
I use 32 psi cold for all rallying except on knobblies on gravel or ice/snow when I go to 30 psi.
I know that for racing even higher pressures are used when on road-tyres rather than sticky slicks.

[ministar]

It goes back to the debate a while ago, whether for track with road going tyres are you meant to increase the pressure, or decrease the pressure? Say a A032R 165 10'' tyre would be classed as a road going tyre yes? What Psi from cold would be optimum for best road holding on track? Very interesting subject.