41 replies to this topic

[jime17]

I really had to give it some welly using a 4ft scaffold pole on a breaker bar to get the hole to line up.

It was moving a fraction at a time and I thought the breaker bar knuckle was going to give.

[jenbachertech]

There is another wheeze which is perfectly safe to do - swap the hub nuts from side to side - it might just make the difference.

[JustSteve]

If the slot is not more than half way to the next slot, when the correct torque is reached, then take some material off the nut with wet and dry on a flat surface. 

 

 

This is NOT a bodge, and is perfectly acceptable. 

[Pigeonto]

If the slot is not more than half way to the next slot, when the correct torque is reached, then take some material off the nut with wet and dry on a flat surface. 
 
 
This is NOT a bodge, and is perfectly acceptable.

Absolutely. What IS dangerous is graunching that nut a whole slot further than from the point at which the correct torque is reached, one will strip the threads sooner or later, or, perish the thought, break, possibly at high speed. Correct, the later ones only have one hole in the shaft. It really doesn't matter how many any one has done in the past, overtightening is overtightening. I for one wont be tightening to 300 lbs ft + and I have done quite a few too! OP, it seems there isn't going to be a conclusive answer to this, please stay away from scaffold poles, definately don't under-tighten. Seems trying different nuts and/or flattening down the nut are popular methods( maybe not wet and dry unless you are blessed with time,but something considerably more coarse)

[JustSteve]

 

If the slot is not more than half way to the next slot, when the correct torque is reached, then take some material off the nut with wet and dry on a flat surface. 
 
 
This is NOT a bodge, and is perfectly acceptable.

Absolutely. What IS dangerous is graunching that nut a whole slot further than from the point at which the correct torque is reached, one will strip the threads sooner or later, or, perish the thought, break, possibly at high speed. Correct, the later ones only have one hole in the shaft. It really doesn't matter how many any one has done in the past, overtightening is overtightening. I for one wont be tightening to 300 lbs ft + and I have done quite a few too! OP, it seems there isn't going to be a conclusive answer to this, please stay away from scaffold poles, definately don't under-tighten. Seems trying different nuts and/or flattening down the nut are popular methods( maybe not wet and dry unless you are blessed with time,but something considerably more coarse)

 

Shouldn't need too much time..   I only use some coarse wet and dry.

[jenbachertech]

Steve, could you please point that particular stage of repair out in the works service manual?

 

I've looked, but can find no reference to removing material from the surfaces of the retaining nut?

 

We are posting repair information to allow for safe maintenance of road vehicles - while this approach will certainly make doing the hub nuts up easier, it will not however allow the correct torque to be realised.

 

Best case, accelerated failure of the bearing due to insuffucient clamping force on the inner races, allowing them to spin on the shaft and increase heat build up.

 

Worst case, the flexing caused by deflection of the pot joint shaft due to poor clamping and excessive play will cause the shaft to snap and loose a wheel.

 

I know what I would prefer, and it does not include fettling down hub nuts because I know better than the engineer that designed the assembly.

 

Sadly there are far too many people that are prepared to take a short cut - information we present here is taken as fact, despite all of the inaccuracies that an online community can present.

 

Sean

[JustSteve]

Steve, could you please point that particular stage of repair out in the works service manual?

 

I've looked, but can find no reference to removing material from the surfaces of the retaining nut?

 

We are posting repair information to allow for safe maintenance of road vehicles - while this approach will certainly make doing the hub nuts up easier, it will not however allow the correct torque to be realised.

 

Best case, accelerated failure of the bearing due to insuffucient clamping force on the inner races, allowing them to spin on the shaft and increase heat build up.

 

Worst case, the flexing caused by deflection of the pot joint shaft due to poor clamping and excessive play will cause the shaft to snap and loose a wheel.

 

I know what I would prefer, and it does not include fettling down hub nuts because I know better than the engineer that designed the assembly.

 

Sadly there are far too many people that are prepared to take a short cut - information we present here is taken as fact, despite all of the inaccuracies that an online community can present.

 

Sean

 

 

There have been reports on here over the years of CV's snapping through overtightening.

 

The Haynes manual tells you to check endfloat on your cam with the gear off..  doesn't make it right.  

 

 

The mini is now 54 years old, and hasn't been produced for 13. quality of materials are not always what they used to be either. 

 

There have been several reports on here of stripped threads and snapping CV's- i have seen it for my very self! 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes common sense goes a long way. If the correct torque only just passes a hole, and has for example another 55 degrees, I do no feel that extra 'stretch' is safe.

 

 

 

 

please forgive me for having contradicting views, but that's just the way i see it. 

[Captain Mainwaring]

Steve, could you please point that particular stage of repair out in the works service manual?

 

I've looked, but can find no reference to removing material from the surfaces of the retaining nut?

 

We are posting repair information to allow for safe maintenance of road vehicles - while this approach will certainly make doing the hub nuts up easier, it will not however allow the correct torque to be realised.

 

Best case, accelerated failure of the bearing due to insuffucient clamping force on the inner races, allowing them to spin on the shaft and increase heat build up.

 

Worst case, the flexing caused by deflection of the pot joint shaft due to poor clamping and excessive play will cause the shaft to snap and loose a wheel.

 

I know what I would prefer, and it does not include fettling down hub nuts because I know better than the engineer that designed the assembly.

 

Sadly there are far too many people that are prepared to take a short cut - information we present here is taken as fact, despite all of the inaccuracies that an online community can present.

 

Sean

 

The advise he gave is perfectly fine, please take the trouble to read it correctly. 

 

I'd guess that more than 50% of the people who use a torque wrench have no idea how to use it in the first place, how to set it, ensure that it is calibrated, and moreover what condition the fasteners should be in before tightening.

 

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by horsing up the hub nut until your eyes pop - once the spacer is clamped firmly, anything else is unnecessary stress on the system - you risk the spacer partially collapsing and place additional stress on the hub nut itself.

 

 

To an engineer (and changing the oil on your car is not engineering) there is an area that lies outside the Haynes manual that he can safely work in - in this case stoning a couple of thou off the hub nut to allow tightening to the correct torque and next split pin without jumping up and down on a 6' bar.

Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 23 July 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[jenbachertech]

The Haynes manual isnt the works service manual.

 

While a Haynes manual is generally excellent, it is not written by the manufacturer.

 

I am happy that we can agree to disagree - I've not snapped, or stripped any driveshaft joint in over 20 years of working on vehicles professionally.

 

I also agree that most folk struggle with the correct use of a torque wrench.

 

I stand by my position, happy for others to do as they please - having been involved in an investigation where somewone was killed as a result of incorrect hub uit tightening, I feel that we have a responsibility to stick to the procedure laid down by the original manufacturer.

 

Cheers

Sean

[lrostoke]

I would say wet/n/drying the nut will not be an issue

 

Looking at the nut below moving to the next split pin slot could involve anything from 1 degree to nearly 60 degrees of movement extra.

With that sort of range I can't see shaving the nut being a problem.

 

 

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

The Haynes manual isnt the works service manual.

 

While a Haynes manual is generally excellent, it is not written by the manufacturer.

 

I am happy that we can agree to disagree - I've not snapped, or stripped any driveshaft joint in over 20 years of working on vehicles professionally.

 

I also agree that most folk struggle with the correct use of a torque wrench.

 

I stand by my position, happy for others to do as they please - having been involved in an investigation where somewone was killed as a result of incorrect hub uit tightening, I feel that we have a responsibility to stick to the procedure laid down by the original manufacturer.

 

Cheers

Sean

 

 

With respect, this is the difference. The "OEM procedure" is designed (and I'm not classing you amongst this group) for well....how shall we put it...Gorillas who failed the Unigate Milkman entrance exam. 

 

BL back in their time looked at how best to write up technical literature for how to do this job - can you imagine telling some of the herberts you can sometimes see working on cars to torque up to a figure, note the angle necessary to reach the next split pin hole and stone off X thou from the clamping face of the hubnut for every 30 degrees it needed to be turned? The only degrees some of these guys know comes with Diana Ross as a lead singer.

 

I'm sure BL looked at it - continued to torque the thing up to the next split pin hole, noted the torque and tightened it to destruction - yep, OK mate, plenty left if in before it snaps, even if you do take it to the next pin hole.

 

That doesn't mean it's the best way of doing it though, it means it provides a solution for the mass market, and that's it.

 

Of course not all garage mechs are gorillas and many would be quite happy to stone the hub nut - but would the customer want to pay for the time? I guess not, after all, it's a cheap little car and no one is going to fly in are they?

 

Yes, sticking to "procedure" is one thing, but having enough sense to see a better way is quite another. 

Unfortunately whilst anyone who isn't qualified as an engineer shouldn't call themselves one in the UK, plenty still do and lots of them shouldn't.

[Captain Mainwaring]

I would say wet/n/drying the nut will not be an issue

 

Looking at the nut below moving to the next split pin slot could involve anything from 1 degree to nearly 60 degrees of movement extra.

With that sort of range I can't see shaving the nut being a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

It wouldn't and it isn't. Anyone know how many threads to the inch that is? Lets work out what you need to do to stone to hit a split pin hole without exceeding torque by no more than say 15-20%

Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 24 July 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[jime17]

diana ross was in the supremes. I also believe she was handy wwith a torque wrench.

[Captain Mainwaring]

diana ross was in the supremes. I also believe she was handy wwith a torque wrench.

 

So she was......But Peter Torque-wrench was in the Monkees

 

Anyhow....what did you go and ruin my rant for....?

Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 24 July 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[jime17]

Perhaps I should have said diana rust as we are in a mini forum.

My apologies. Please continue your rant. I find them both educational and entertaining.