128 replies to this topic

[Cooperman]

It is not a necessarily a 'ringer'. It has possibly been re-shelled with a 'period' (i.e. early Mk.1 shell) to keep it on the road and in existence.

We will never know whether the re-shell was simply a different body, painted in red, possibly with the engine, etc, transplanted, or not as the case may be. 

If we all keep on about this car on this forum and on the others, maybe the DVLA will get it up on their radar and decide to crush it.

Whatever it actually is, it is certainly a very attractive car a d a '59 or '60 are both great to own.

It is no more 'ringed (rung?) than all those ex-works and other competition Minis which have been re-shelled, sometimes several times, and which now change hands at huge money, even though they are known to have been re-shelled and the car you buy just has, for example, only the reg. number of the 1967 International Alpine Rally winning car.

I know of a well-known Cooper 'S' with extensive competition history right back to 1965. It had to be re-shelled and when this was done, the original dents in the floor were reproduced together with a couple of other repairs which were reproduced to maintain 'originality'. Still, it's a beautiful car and worth a fortune, but I won't disclose its reg. no. 

[CityEPete]

Thats all very nostalgic but we know its tosh, sorry but we all know there has never been a way in which that was the correct method of reshelling, if the shell was so good why not just repair its running gear and keep that cars identification. A used shell with another cars reg/vin is a ringer, say what you like.

That 'period' shell was already in existence just fine and dandy even if both cars were purchased legitimately it's still a ringer, where is the V5 for the period shell?

The works cars, how were they reshelled, using standard already registered cars then stripped and rebuilt to works spec? Ringers too then, lol

Edited by CityEPete, 28 December 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[mingy]

It is not a necessarily a 'ringer'. It has possibly been re-shelled with a 'period' (i.e. early Mk.1 shell) to keep it on the road and in existence.

We will never know whether the re-shell was simply a different body, painted in red, possibly with the engine, etc, transplanted, or not as the case may be. 

If we all keep on about this car on this forum and on the others, maybe the DVLA will get it up on their radar and decide to crush it.

Whatever it actually is, it is certainly a very attractive car a d a '59 or '60 are both great to own.

It is no more 'ringed (rung?) than all those ex-works and other competition Minis which have been re-shelled, sometimes several times, and which now change hands at huge money, even though they are known to have been re-shelled and the car you buy just has, for example, only the reg. number of the 1967 International Alpine Rally winning car.

I know of a well-known Cooper 'S' with extensive competition history right back to 1965. It had to be re-shelled and when this was done, the original dents in the floor were reproduced together with a couple of other repairs which were reproduced to maintain 'originality'. Still, it's a beautiful car and worth a fortune, but I won't disclose its reg. no. 

Did it have number 15 on the door at some point Pete........

[mab01uk]

As I (and Cooperman) have said many times before when you were restoring a Mk1 or Mk2 Cooper or S in the 1970/80's it was just not financially worth restoring a very rusty or accident damaged Mini bodyshell like it is now. The finished value of the car just did not warrant it......however standard Mk1 Mini's in good condition were not worth much and were considered fairly common old bangers unlikely to ever become sought after classics by most of us. Therefore many early Cooper enthusiasts would buy something like a rust free, low mileage, 'little old lady owned' Mini 850 automatic of a similar year, strip it and transfer the Cooper or S parts across to the rot free shell along with the reg no. and log book. The Mini Super 850cc was particularly sought after as it had much of the Cooper trim already fitted. Many of todays 'show cars' have those kind of origins if you could dig deep enough but are so well done it is impossible to tell.

The restorer bought the donor vehicle so nothing was stolen and therefore of no interest to Police or DVLA......the lesser Mini was either notified as scrapped when disposing of the rotten shell or the worthless log book was often thrown away as you did not have to declare SORN, etc back then.

I remember taking our scrap racing Mini bodyshells to the local council dump in the 1970's with any old Mini log book we had to hand in with it.......nobody cared or checked any of the numbers or details!

The same of course happens in the world of performance Ford's like the Escort, Lotus Cortina, Sierra, etc where the lesser basic 2 door models are or have been used as donors purely for their rust free or undamaged bodyshells.

When all said and done if all those early cars hadn't been built from donors there'd be very few about for people to enjoy today......

 

DVLA to include Reshell or Die proposal as part of a major review of INF26 legislation.

http://www.classicsm...roposal-update/

Edited by mab01uk, 28 December 2014 - 10:09 PM.

[Cooperman]

I'm not saying, but mine is not a 'works-prepared' car - I prepared it all myself for historic rallying.

 

One of the problems is that most of those criticising what is done these days were not around and building/preparing Minis in the '60's.

Let me give you an example. I had a friend who was a BMC dealer and a rally driver. In fact I navigated on several events with him in his 1071 'S' and sometimes he drove my 1964 998 Cooper. Now he had a customer who had an almost new 850 which had a shunt up the back. As it was only about 5 months old the insurance company instructed him to buy & fit a brand new shell. This he did and he retained all the original numbers which is what the insurers wanted to avoid devaluing the car. Now he had a fairly good and totally rust-free but slightly damaged Mk.1 shell and it was simple to do the rear end repair. So this shell was used to re-shell his 1071 'S' after he hit a tree 'big time' on the International Tulip Rally. It also retained the original numbers and was painted gold/black as his 1071 had always been. To everyone it was just the same car, but nicely repaired and just as strong.

 

In those days this was not unusual and I had an apprentice working with me who had an early 850 Mini. This was in 1968. He rolled it, but we were working in the design offices of an aircraft company who also owned a BMC dealership next door (in Cambridge). I knew their bodyshop manager and he found a similar shell which had been replaced on a 1967 car. The apprentice bought this shell as a special 'inside the company' deal and re-built his 850 into it. It was still a '62 car, technically, but it had a bigger rear window and rectangular rear lights.

 

This sort of thing was commonplace and no-one thought anything about it. Is there some sort of theoretical 'cut-off' point at which a car ceases to be 'genuine' if it has been re-shelled? The body-shell was just another part number in the parts book. The number of rally car crashes, in Minis and other cars, which have resulted in the owner saying not to worry as he has a 'couple of spare shell' in the workshop is huge and we all did it 'back then'. Now folk are getting paranoid about it. Using the no re-shelling criteria, virtually all the 'works' rally Minis are 'ringers'.

 

I had a 998 Cooper in 1968 into which I fitted an 1275 'S' engine and gearbox, a 120 mph speedo, twin tanks, etc, and it's mechanical specification was that of a Cooper 'S'. I sent the log-book to the Ministry of Transport (before DVLA days), told them the engine was a 1275 'S' gave them the engine number and the log-book came back as a 1965 1275 Mini Cooper 'S', colour red/white. Everyone jus said it was a Cooper 'S'.

 

But times change and attitudes as well. Those who were not there don't understand all this. That's not their fault, but they don't see things the same way as we did when the Mini was a new car.

[Bubblebobble]

We DO understand it , you DO not understand that its not really acceptable nowadays , despite people who stand to make money from these things using the ' it happened in the old days ' flag to hide behind and justify there actions .

 

 This car is being marketed as being a early model which has different features , thats its value and interest , but these are not correct . Its not the 6 th oldest surviving mini , as its more than likely most of it is not there .

 

A honest listing would say its a 59 car that had been reshelled , not all this 'old rare super special ' rubbish .

[CityEPete]

I totally understand it too, great so the body was a part number in the book, so you could order one then just like you can now, I'm 100% in favour of that and that really is keeping a car on the road!

Top and bottom no matter who says what, how long you have been working on these cars is that 'reshelling' into used shells was done for the same reason then as it is now, its cheaper than a new replacement heritage body and the ringer that was created was worth more with cooper identity than leaving the 850 on its original document but with all the go faster bits from the cooper bolted on.

You knew what was going on then as people do now, ringers

Heres my guide for ringers new or historical :-D
A-Has the car got the same body it was first built with or one supplied with a receipt from the manufacturer or an approved supplier like heritage? Thats normal but less desirable if its had a new body.

B- Is the car made from what were originally two cars? regardless of whether both cars were owned legitimately at the time of mating, how long ago it was or how new or old both/either cars were at the time of mating or how much of a financial or sentimental investment you have in the resulting car it is in fact a ringer if you use the V5 other than the one from the monocoque.

Edited by CityEPete, 29 December 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[Cooperman]

I thought he did say that it had been re-shelled, but if he didn't, then I made a mistake.

 

I can tell you this though, when I rolled my 1964 Cooper 'S' whilst leading a rally in a Welsh forest, I thought I had done a lot of damage. I couldn't see how much as the car was upside down, but I said to my son, who was navigating "I'm glad we have a spare Mk.1 shell at home, I think I might be going to need it". I would just have put everything into my 'spare' shell, after seam welding it to match my crashed one and painting it red/white. That would have been the safest and easiest way to repair my car and be rallying again without too much trouble. it was not necessary and all I needed was a roof panel plus a bit of welding, straightening on a panel or two and a bit of painting. If I had twisted my shell in the roll I would not have wanted to straighten it in a jig and, besides, it would have kept me from winning rallies in my Mini for some considerable time.

I don't think I can identify a Mk.1 competition Mini which has not been re-shelled at some time. I also reckon that about 60% of all Cooper 'S's have been re-shelled into better Mk.1 shells at some time. How would anyone ever know? The shells are all identical and have no identification marks.

Edited by Cooperman, 28 December 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[Cooperman]

I totally understand it too, great so the body was a part number in the book, so you could order one then just like you can now, I'm 100% in favour of that and that really is keeping a car on the road!

Top and bottom no matter who says what, how long you have been working on these cars is that 'reshelling' into used shells was done for the same reason then as it is now, its cheaper than a new replacement heritage body and the ringer that was created was worth more with cooper identity than leaving the 850 on its original document but with all the go faster bits from the cooper bolted on.

You knew what was going on then as people do now, ringers

Heres my guide for ringers new or historical :-D
A-Has the car got the same body it was first built with or one supplied with a receipt from the manufacturer or an approved supplier like heritage? Thats normal but less desirable if its had a new body.

B- Is the car made from what were originally two cars? regardless of whether both cars were owned legitimately at the time of mating, how long ago it was or how new or old both/either cars were at the time of mating or how much of a financial or sentimental investment you have in the resulting car it is in fact a ringer.

 

 

You cannot order a Mk.1 or Mk.2 shell new as they are no longer made.

 

If I own 2  cars and use the bodyshell from one and the engine/gearbox from the other, how is that a 'ringer' or in any way illegal or immoral?

 

What happens to keep early cars on the road and in existence is not going to change any time soon. In fact, it might become easier.

 

A person who own a Mk.1 in need of a new shell will simply find one ( I know where there are several in various states of repair) and re-build their car. You can call them 'ringers' or whatever, how will anyone ever know so long as the shell is the correct type for the year. Not may people care - look at the prices for ex-works re-shelled rally cars. In fact the 'works' didn't always actually re-shell cars, they changed the identity to suit what they wanted, as did many private competition teams. They would require a 1275 and a 970, in Group 2 form, for an event. Now they might have a 1275 set up for the type of event, say a tarmac rally, but want a 970. So they would stick a 970 engine in the 1275 and change the plates, VIN plate and badges, to suit the 970 V5 and that would be its new identity. Then they might change it again. If one got crashed and there was a spare 850 shell lying about they would use that. Private teams did virtually the same and I know one guy who had two Escort TC's with the same reg number, one for tarmac and one for forests.

 

In the case of the '59 or '60 850, the problem is that the 1959 shells soon changed a lot as the engineering problems were identified and improvements made.

[CityEPete]

If you are buying a well worn rally/race car you know what you are getting into, even then these good spare shells came from somewhere other than the factory.

The "how would anyone know" is the whole point behind doing it now just as it was then, money. If its made of bits and pieces the only reason the people building the cars want a Cooper V5 or a tax exempt mpi is too make a few quid possibly at someone else's expense.

[mk3 Cooper S]

I agree that this type of discussion may highlight something to a uninformed official somewhere that needent be .

 

Whatever clothes it is wearing I wonder if the unique 59 features demand the price. I wonder if  an attempt to reproduce the floor pan seam etc may have made the 59 club view it more favourably?

[Tanya]

From my understanding the question is whether the Mini has been re-shelled or had the VIN number (and I guess any other number that could be moved) put directly onto a 1960 Mini.  Re-shelling (so moving parts from one Mini shell to another Mini shell) is different in this context to switching identity.  Is there anything at all from the original 1959 Mini left (so glass, interior, running gear etc), or is this Mini essentially purely a 1960 with the only thing coming from the original 1959 Mini being its identity?   Have then a few 1959 parts been added retrospectively to try to support the claim that this is really the significant Mini that it purports to be?  My understanding is this is what the dispute is about.  

[CityEPete]

I totally understand it too, great so the body was a part number in the book, so you could order one then just like you can now, I'm 100% in favour of that and that really is keeping a car on the road!
Top and bottom no matter who says what, how long you have been working on these cars is that 'reshelling' into used shells was done for the same reason then as it is now, its cheaper than a new replacement heritage body and the ringer that was created was worth more with cooper identity than leaving the 850 on its original document but with all the go faster bits from the cooper bolted on.
You knew what was going on then as people do now, ringers
Heres my guide for ringers new or historical :-D
A-Has the car got the same body it was first built with or one supplied with a receipt from the manufacturer or an approved supplier like heritage? Thats normal but less desirable if its had a new body.

B- Is the car made from what were originally two cars? regardless of whether both cars were owned legitimately at the time of mating, how long ago it was or how new or old both/either cars were at the time of mating or how much of a financial or sentimental investment you have in the resulting car it is in fact a ringer.

 
 
You cannot order a Mk.1 or Mk.2 shell new as they are no longer made.
 
If I own 2  cars and use the bodyshell from one and the engine/gearbox from the other, how is that a 'ringer' or in any way illegal or immoral?
 
What happens to keep early cars on the road and in existence is not going to change any time soon. In fact, it might become easier.
 
A person who own a Mk.1 in need of a new shell will simply find one ( I know where there are several in various states of repair) and re-build their car. You can call them 'ringers' or whatever, how will anyone ever know so long as the shell is the correct type for the year. Not may people care - look at the prices for ex-works re-shelled rally cars. In fact the 'works' didn't always actually re-shell cars, they changed the identity to suit what they wanted, as did many private competition teams. They would require a 1275 and a 970, in Group 2 form, for an event. Now they might have a 1275 set up for the type of event, say a tarmac rally, but want a 970. So they would stick a 970 engine in the 1275 and change the plates, VIN plate and badges, to suit the 970 V5 and that would be its new identity. Then they might change it again. If one got crashed and there was a spare 850 shell lying about they would use that. Private teams did virtually the same and I know one guy who had two Escort TC's with the same reg number, one for tarmac and one for forests.
 
In the case of the '59 or '60 850, the problem is that the 1959 shells soon changed a lot as the engineering problems were identified and improvements made.

You were saying back in the day the body was a part for order, but no one did and just used a lesser mini for its shell, thats the dictionary definition of a ringer.

There is no such thing as a spare shell mate, they left the factory as complete cars! The only spare shells are ones built for replacement, if it was previously registered it had its own V5 the shell is the main part of the car and mating your bits should have resulted in reinstating the 850 not the Cooper, it always has, you can try and convince yourself if you like but competition car or daily driver, two cars into one is a ringer, no more no less

[Cooperman]

 

 

I totally understand it too, great so the body was a part number in the book, so you could order one then just like you can now, I'm 100% in favour of that and that really is keeping a car on the road!
Top and bottom no matter who says what, how long you have been working on these cars is that 'reshelling' into used shells was done for the same reason then as it is now, its cheaper than a new replacement heritage body and the ringer that was created was worth more with cooper identity than leaving the 850 on its original document but with all the go faster bits from the cooper bolted on.
You knew what was going on then as people do now, ringers
Heres my guide for ringers new or historical :-D
A-Has the car got the same body it was first built with or one supplied with a receipt from the manufacturer or an approved supplier like heritage? Thats normal but less desirable if its had a new body.

B- Is the car made from what were originally two cars? regardless of whether both cars were owned legitimately at the time of mating, how long ago it was or how new or old both/either cars were at the time of mating or how much of a financial or sentimental investment you have in the resulting car it is in fact a ringer.

 
 
You cannot order a Mk.1 or Mk.2 shell new as they are no longer made.
 
If I own 2  cars and use the bodyshell from one and the engine/gearbox from the other, how is that a 'ringer' or in any way illegal or immoral?
 
What happens to keep early cars on the road and in existence is not going to change any time soon. In fact, it might become easier.
 
A person who own a Mk.1 in need of a new shell will simply find one ( I know where there are several in various states of repair) and re-build their car. You can call them 'ringers' or whatever, how will anyone ever know so long as the shell is the correct type for the year. Not may people care - look at the prices for ex-works re-shelled rally cars. In fact the 'works' didn't always actually re-shell cars, they changed the identity to suit what they wanted, as did many private competition teams. They would require a 1275 and a 970, in Group 2 form, for an event. Now they might have a 1275 set up for the type of event, say a tarmac rally, but want a 970. So they would stick a 970 engine in the 1275 and change the plates, VIN plate and badges, to suit the 970 V5 and that would be its new identity. Then they might change it again. If one got crashed and there was a spare 850 shell lying about they would use that. Private teams did virtually the same and I know one guy who had two Escort TC's with the same reg number, one for tarmac and one for forests.
 
In the case of the '59 or '60 850, the problem is that the 1959 shells soon changed a lot as the engineering problems were identified and improvements made.

You were saying back in the day the body was a part for order, but no one did and just used a lesser mini for its shell, thats the dictionary definition of a ringer.

There is no such thing as a spare shell mate, they left the factory as complete cars! The only spare shells are ones built for replacement, if it was previously registered it had its own V5 the shell is the main part of the car and mating your bits should have resulted in reinstating the 850 not the Cooper, it always has, you can try and convince yourself if you like but competition car or daily driver, two cars into one is a ringer, no more no less

 

 

When a fairly new car was re-shelled with a brand new shell because that is what an insurance company decided, the body-shop/main dealer would  order a shell from BMC Service. It would arrive and the damaged, but fairly new Mini would be re-built into this shell after the shell was painted the correct colour. All the body plates would be transferred onto the new shell so that the owner would still have the same car and no change would have been made to the log book. That left the damaged shell, which had no identity any more. So these were used by us 'rally blokes' who had a habit of breaking our cars and an almost new shell with a small amount of damage which, given a bare shell, was easy to repair, was good to use to repair our cars. No intention to defraud or mislead was ever intended. To us they were just body-shells - a part number like any other part. We just went rallying in them, and used them day-to-day in most cases as well. It was not necessarily a 'lesser' shell, and I know of cases where other 'S' or Cooper shells were used to repair crashed cars. It was what was available. Once the identity had been transferred to the original crashed car by the insurer, the shell was just a bare shell and had no 'model status'. All shells are the same.

 

You can all say what you like, but as you read the history of the classic Mini and marvel at its success in competition, just remember that this was how those cars were kept running and re-prepared for hard events. They are virtually all 'ringers' by the definition of some on here, including almost all the ex-works cars.

Edited by Cooperman, 28 December 2014 - 09:46 PM.

[Bubblebobble]

Rubbish - why would a easily repairable shell  , finacially viable to be fixed , then be reshelled instead  ?

 

I do tend to think you just like to  sound like mr big time , seen evrything on here .

 

 

The very fact is you cannot seem to get it through your head , that even back then , that was illegal  and its still illegal now , and very much frowned upon .

 

Its not 1965 anymore .