128 replies to this topic

[CityEPete]

It's always going to be a losing battle regarding this I know but why can't people just admit there is no such thing as a period shell other than what would have been a new one from the factory during production or a heritage shell in recent times where it's not possible to legally re shell an early car as yet.
No matter how you dress it up if the second hand shell ends up with the registration and vin of another car it's a ringer regardless of how many parts come from the donor car, it just is, there has never been and never will be a situation where that is not the case!

Edited by CityEPete, 29 December 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[mab01uk]

Just a point re. works minis. these were reshelled every event because they suffered stress cracks that were not repairable. It was not unusual to see the cars being welded at service breaks in the actual rally. The cars have two rigid subframes that put huge loads on the shell when being rallied with a vengance. Seam welding helps a bit but will just crack next to the weld eventually. I am sure rally cars nowdays do the same, why risk all the effort and cost of rallying just for a shell to fail?

 

The ID's and Reg Numbers were also swapped regularly between works cars and spare rally cars to suit the event or drivers entered or when the original car could not be repaired in time for the next event.

Stuart Turner and others confirm this and are amused by the quest to prove which or what is an authentic works car, when probably none were ever quite what they seemed in the modern purists sense. Even today works car enthusiasts closely analyse old photos to try to identify unique features and modifications to confirm which car appeared under several different reg numbers, also sometimes the same ID documents were used for convenience on another works Mini while competing on an event in say Australia with the 'original' car still in the UK. This has resulted in more than one person in another country claiming to own the same 'original' works Mini.....

Many appeared as Austin or Morris on different rallies maybe depending on advertising requirements and on at least one occasion different marque badges were fitted front and back!

 

Another pitfall even for non-works cars is that many of the Minis and Cooper S exported to Japan and USA in previous years, especially the 1980/90's, is that some had there UK ID's retained and attached to another replica built Mini........end result is 2 versions of the same car but in different countries, again on a few occasions the existence of both has come to light followed by a dispute on who owns the 'real' authentic car.

[Fast Ivan]

 

Just a point re. works minis. these were reshelled every event because they suffered stress cracks that were not repairable. It was not unusual to see the cars being welded at service breaks in the actual rally. The cars have two rigid subframes that put huge loads on the shell when being rallied with a vengance. Seam welding helps a bit but will just crack next to the weld eventually. I am sure rally cars nowdays do the same, why risk all the effort and cost of rallying just for a shell to fail?

 

The ID's and Reg Numbers were also swapped regularly between works cars and spare rally cars to suit the event or drivers entered or when the original car could not be repaired in time for the next event.

Stuart Turner and others confirm this and are amused by the quest to prove which or what is an authentic works car, when probably none were ever quite what they seemed in the modern purists sense. Even today works car enthusiasts closely analyse old photos to try to identify unique features and modifications to confirm which car appeared under several different reg numbers, also sometimes the same ID documents were used for convenience on another works Mini while competing on an event in say Australia with the 'original' car still in the UK. This has resulted in more than one person in another country claiming to own the same 'original' works Mini.....

Many appeared as Austin or Morris on different rallies maybe depending on advertising requirements and on at least one occasion different marque badges were fitted front and back!

 

Another pitfall even for non-works cars is that many of the Minis and Cooper S exported to Japan and USA in previous years, especially the 1980/90's, is that some had there UK ID's retained and attached to another replica built Mini........end result is 2 versions of the same car but in different countries, again on a few occasions the existence of both has come to light followed by a dispute on who owns the 'real' authentic car.

 

that's just bizarre to read 

[ToM 2012]

Ding ding ding fight!

[CityEPete]

Ding ding ding fight!

I have already lost Tom, Lol. What you have done is keeping a Mini on the road for what it is worth.

[ToM 2012]

Mine was in a bad way and I restored it. At first I was going to re shell it but allways nicer to repair the original shell well top half is original bottom section is all new. This mini above 25 years ago it was probably the cheapest easiest and quickest option to re shell it. these days now every piece of metal that can be saved that is original is worth repairing. I have just brought another mk1 mini a 1960 someone brought it stripped all the good parts of it and then sold the rolling shell on to who I brought it of. Now this will leave me with original shell heritage certificate original logbook and tags on body shell I have no original engine seats clocks etc I will have to find all this but it won't be original to the shell does this make my 1960 a turnip?

[Tanya]

Given the dubious history of this Mini and that Bill Bell from the 1959 Register considers it to be a 1960 Mini with the identity of a 1959, I would not choose this Mini as an investment.  The 1959 Register are the authority on these very early Minis, so a potential buyer would do well consult with them first before buying any Mini that is advertised as a 1959.  For me, given the issues with this Mini, I wouldn't buy it even if I accepted it as a 1960 Mini rather than a 1959.  It's just too much of a mess for me.  It's a shame really because if it did have its 1960 identity it would be great as it does look like a very nice Mini.  

 

The big problem is that nowadays Minis don't just appeal to die-hard know-all enthusiasts, they appeal to a much wider and considerably less well informed market.  I believe that the seller of this particular Mini is aiming at that market.  Additionally, early Mini prices have shot up in the 18 months or so.  

 

 

 

[jpw1275]

No tom as your not transferring the v5 etc.....;0)

Cheers james

[Daz1968]

I think technically just owning the shell doesn't gain enough points to retain ID although I would say that a car built from the original shell and all other parts sourced is more original than buying a box of bits with a v5 and replacing the shell. Although in the eyes of the dvla the box of bits could obtain more points.

[surfblue]

I think Id still like to own this mini, think of the debates you could have at car shows!

Having reread the ad and the additional information provided by the seller I think its accurately described, no one can be accused of trying to pass it off as an original '59 when it no longer is.

At £13.5K at the minute, is it going to go higher? £15K would be my guess.

[Tanya]

I think Id still like to own this mini, think of the debates you could have at car shows!

Having reread the ad and the additional information provided by the seller I think its accurately described, no one can be accused of trying to pass it off as an original '59 when it no longer is.

At £13.5K at the minute, is it going to go higher? £15K would be my guess.

 

I think having the title for the listing as 'Austin 7 mini, 1959, the 6th oldest mini in the world,great investment potential' is incredibly misleading. 

[CityEPete]

Mine was in a bad way and I restored it. At first I was going to re shell it but allways nicer to repair the original shell well top half is original bottom section is all new. This mini above 25 years ago it was probably the cheapest easiest and quickest option to re shell it. these days now every piece of metal that can be saved that is original is worth repairing. I have just brought another mk1 mini a 1960 someone brought it stripped all the good parts of it and then sold the rolling shell on to who I brought it of. Now this will leave me with original shell heritage certificate original logbook and tags on body shell I have no original engine seats clocks etc I will have to find all this but it won't be original to the shell does this make my 1960 a turnip?

I think its fair to see the shell as the main part of the car Tom, subframes and engines all have a life span that was designed not to be around as long as we have let these little cars remain on the road for, as new replacements for everything other than a mk1 shell is available new or reconditioned with a VAT receipt I have no problem with that at all

Edited by CityEPete, 29 December 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[mab01uk]

 

Mine was in a bad way and I restored it. At first I was going to re shell it but allways nicer to repair the original shell well top half is original bottom section is all new. This mini above 25 years ago it was probably the cheapest easiest and quickest option to re shell it. these days now every piece of metal that can be saved that is original is worth repairing. I have just brought another mk1 mini a 1960 someone brought it stripped all the good parts of it and then sold the rolling shell on to who I brought it of. Now this will leave me with original shell heritage certificate original logbook and tags on body shell I have no original engine seats clocks etc I will have to find all this but it won't be original to the shell does this make my 1960 a turnip?

I think its fair to see the shell as the main part of the car Tom, subframes and engines all have a life span that was designed not to be around as long as we have let these little cars remain on the road for, as new replacements for everything other than a mk1 shell is available new or reconditioned with a VAT receipt I have no problem with that at all

 

 

Under the DVLA points system the original Mk1 Shell is not enough on its own and if you declare the fact that the other parts fitted (that score points) like the subframes are new or secondhand you will be issued with a Q plate if they don't add up to 8 points........why anyone would actually declare that fact to the DVLA and invite them to inspect their car I'm not sure, when many 'original' Minis would have had some or all of these items replaced over the last 50 years anyway, most monocoque construction cars like the Mini don't have any dateable serial numbers stamped into many of the various points scoring items listed by the DVLA rule book below. No one has ever been able to explain to me how a DVLA inspector will confirm that your subframes, steering assembly, axles, etc are new or secondhand replacement items and not the restored originals.......perhaps they use Radiocarbon dating techniques as used in Archaeology!

 

Therefore I agree with CityEPete.....Tom if you have the original Mk1 shell no problem in the real world...unless you really feel the need to ask for the extra excitement of an official inspection!

 

The DVLA uses a points system to decide what registration number to give a radically altered vehicle:-

To keep the original registration number

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number.

5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part Points:

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5

Suspension (front and back) - original 2

Axles (both) - original 2

Transmission - original 2

Steering assembly - original 2

Engine - original 1

 

Get a ‘Q’ registration number

You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:

• it has fewer than 8 points
• it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
• there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)

Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

 

https://www.gov.uk/v...ltered-vehicles

Edited by mab01uk, 29 December 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[Sleepy Stu]

Ok correct me if I am wrong but back in the day wasn't reshelling done on a points system. Each part that came across from the original vehicle had a number of points attached and if enough points were reached the original identification could be retained.

 

If this is the case then surely back in the day reshells could be done legally.

 

Edit : ok see above

Edited by Sleepy Stu, 29 December 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Bubblebobble]

No , because re -shells were done in peoples sheds , and no one was notified !