128 replies to this topic

[evosal]

I personally think that's a correct thing to do, imagine you have a monte winning works cooper s and a bin wagon reverses over it, would you scrap it ? of couse you wouldn't, cant buy a new shell anymore so a new one would be sourced from a one lady owner 850, provided its the exact same spec shell what would be wrong with that ? provided of course you declared it when selling as i am in this case.
(of course this is immaterial because if you owned a works mini it would be on a second hand shell already)

Say you have a grade 1 listed building and it burned down to the ground, it would be re-built to the original spec and still classed as the same house, the fire would be in its history

[Tanya]

That's what Bill Bell says.....so it must be right, do you seriously think someone is going to see the title and bid over £13k without reading the description ?

The description and the title are factually accurate, it is chassis 12 legally, I have given an extensive and detailed description about the KNOWN FACTS of its previous history, most of the 59 features are there, the original engine is fitted.

 

Yes, I believe that Bill is right.  

 

I continue to believe that the title of the listing is very misleading.   

 

I think that we're going to have to agree to disagree on the above.  However, I hope potential bidders on your Mini see the numerous Facebook posts and threads about it, so they too can see the concerns raised by many.  

[cagy]

The problem is the shell you have isn't exaclty same spec and it is still missing genuine 1959 parts.

[CityEPete]

Im reading used body in that link as a body for separate chassis vehicles, what we call a body on a mini is its chassis, the chassis has a chassis number just like a mini has. Is that the same terms pre 98 body swaps were allowed but interpreted to suit mini enthusiasts?

[evosal]

Surely if you were using a second hand shell before 1998 you should have used the ID from the shell not the engine and a pair of rusty subframes?

It always come down to money, funny how they always end up with the more valuable ID when people 'restore' these cars to the road.

No it was allowed to use the donor car i.d, of course all this is a long time before I owned it, as for value I don't think there would have been any real difference between a 60 and a 59 in the early 90's, its only fairly recently 59's have increased, back then it was just a 30 yr old mini, equivalent to a 1985 mayfair nowadays

[evosal]

Im reading used body in that link as a body for separate chassis vehicles, what we call a body on a mini is its chassis, the chassis has a chassis number just like a mini has. Is that the same terms pre 98 body swaps were allowed but interpreted to suit mini enthusiasts?

It is specifically aimed at cars with a monocoque chassis

[evosal]

The problem is the shell you have isn't exaclty same spec and it is still missing genuine 1959 parts.

Ok, you've seen it have you ? I pointed out on the ad that the front floorpans are different although these can be bought for £135, what else is different ?

[CityEPete]

Im reading used body in that link as a body for separate chassis vehicles, what we call a body on a mini is its chassis, the chassis has a chassis number just like a mini has. Is that the same terms pre 98 body swaps were allowed but interpreted to suit mini enthusiasts?

It is specifically aimed at cars with a monocoque chassis

Where does it say that?, I'm seeing body not chassis or any reference to monocoque chassis.

[cagy]

If you can con someone into buying a ringer then good luck to you, just hope you can sleep well knowing that you've sold a 1960's car with a 1959 VIN plate on it

[mab01uk]

I was a member of the Mini Cooper Club (later MC Register) from the day it started in 1979 and can confirm that the major Mk1 or Mk2 Mini Cooper restorations at that time due to serious rust or accident damage often involved the use of a better secondhand shell bought and donated from a lesser 850 or 1000 Mini of an equivalent era. Only the Mk3 S had the luxury of a new shell being available from BL, the chairman and founder of the MCC Club in 1980 was actually restoring his Mk2 with a Mk3 shell. All this was openly talked about and many such restorations were detailed in the club magazine and the mainstream classic car mags at the time, along with photos of the donor car. It is only since 1998 as stated that the rules changed. Many of todays appreciated concours Mini's on the show scene, especially Coopers would not exist today had that not been the case.......if they had remained as basic everyday Mini's most would have been scrapped in the near future as worthless bangers as so many were in later years. We should not judge those pre-1998 restored cars by todays rules introduced by the DVLA in their infinite wisdom for modern cars but with little consideration for the sometimes special needs of classic car enthusiasts and restorers.

Edited by mab01uk, 29 December 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[evosal]

Im reading used body in that link as a body for separate chassis vehicles, what we call a body on a mini is its chassis, the chassis has a chassis number just like a mini has. Is that the same terms pre 98 body swaps were allowed but interpreted to suit mini enthusiasts?

It is specifically aimed at cars with a monocoque chassis

Where does it say that?, I'm seeing body not chassis or any reference to monocoque chassis.

Here


http://www.gopetitio...42909.html#sign

[evosal]

I was a member of the Mini Cooper Club (later MC Register) from the day it started in 1979 and can confirm that the major Mk1 or Mk2 Mini Cooper restorations at that time due to serious rust or accident damage often involved the use of a better secondhand shell bought and donated from a lesser 850 or 1000 Mini of an equivalent era. Only the Mk3 S had the luxury of a new shell being available from BL, the chairman and founder of the MCC Club in 1980 was actually restoring his Mk2 with a Mk3 shell. All this was openly talked about and many such restorations were detailed in the club magazine and the mainstream classic car mags at the time, along with photos of the donor car. It is only since 1998 as stated that the rules changed. Many of todays appreciated concours Mini's on the show scene, especially Coopers would not exist today had that not been the case.......if they had remained as basic everyday Mini's most would have been scrapped in the near future as worthless bangers as so many were in later years. We should not judge those pre-1998 restored cars by todays rules introduced by the DVLA in their infinite wisdom for modern cars but with little consideration for the sometimes special needs of classic car enthusiasts and restorers.

I fully agree, I would love to see someone restore chassis 12 to its original spec and colour and save it for future generations of mini enthusiasts, listening to most posters on here they would rather see it crushed, I love going to shows and looking over the works cars, concours cooper s etc, the mini scene would be much dimished if these cars had not been saved

Edited by evosal, 29 December 2014 - 11:27 PM.

[evosal]

If you can con someone into buying a ringer then good luck to you, just hope you can sleep well knowing that you've sold a 1960's car with a 1959 VIN plate on it

Have you actually read the advert ?

[evosal]

The problem is the shell you have isn't exaclty same spec and it is still missing genuine 1959 parts.

Ok, you've seen it have you ? I pointed out on the ad that the front floorpans are different although these can be bought for £135, what else is different ?

??? Gone quiet

[Black.Ghost]

Evosal - the link above is for the petition, not the past rules. I would be quite interested to read these rules prior to the change in 1998. I think in the context of this sale, they may be quite important. 

 

There are a couple of other things though. If anyone buys this car, they cannot complain later on about what they may or may not have. If you are going to spend 13k+ on a very rare car such as a 1959 mini, you really need to do every bit of research you can. Given the internet, it is so very easy to do these days. No one will have my sympathy if they buy this and later feel 'conned'. In that respect, I think the eBay ad is fair enough. Legally, and assuming the below is true, as Evosal has stated, the title is accurate. The rest is down to personal interpretation. 

 

The next point is whether the components from the 1959 car were actually swapped or just the ID. If all components other than the shell were used, and it was done pre-98 and could be done legally (which I haven't seen proof of yet), then actually this is quite a rare mini. This was done before the current owner got the car and therefore unless you can track down the person who actually did it, I guess we will never know for sure, although 'Bill' from the 59 Register did state on another forum that having the car for 10 minutes he could confirm whether it was an ID swap or not? He also stated that they [and I assume they refers to the 59 register] don't give out the information on where to find this. Well, I have to say, I think thats wrong. I understand that they don't want people creating fakes and the like, but at the same time information should be available to all. I am sure there are some members on here who do know this information.

 

I'll never own the car, or in all likelihood any 1959 Mini, so I'm not all that bothered.