93 replies to this topic

[1984mini25]

 

Ok let me ask you a question. What do you believe?

 

I believe that there is no evidence of currently having or previously having had, a god.  It's all based on a book that was written many years ago in a radically different time, before science existed/was able to explain exactly how the world works and how it has evolved over time.  It was easier and more plausible in these times to pin it all on some 'greater power' that was doing it all.  These beliefs have just continued to this day which I find incredible given our proof in the form of science.

 

I am fine with people having a faith, as it's up to them to believe what they want.  If they want to be led by something/someone up there, go right ahead.  It's the questioning of others and why they don't believe and forcing their religion on people that I despise.  

 

For example an old Uni friend of mine was a dedicated church goer and was heavily involved in 'spreading the good word of the lord' and basically said I should believe to make myself a good person.  He simply didn't take it that I didn't believe because I saw no proof so why would I believe it?  He went abroad to impoverished countries, not to do charity work and actually help people but to go round the poor saying god loved them and they would be ok, when clearly they wouldn't be.  

 

My grandmother goes to church every Sunday and admittedly doesn't mention it around my family, as she knows it would be falling on deaf ears.  I have found that some of her church are the most judgmental and bitter people I have ever met.  Surely that goes against the Christians faith of seeing good in people and not judging them?  Its not just limited to that select group either but the wider church population too.  My girlfriends grandfather is a retired minister and he is a lovely man and agrees that the church needs to come into the modern world and see it for what it really is.

 

I find it equally incredible that amount of 100% non-religious, never been to church type people that get married in a church.  I find that entirely hypocritical.  If you don't believe, I would say its insulting to Christians to use it to get married in, as its effectively treating it as a room for hire.

 

 

None of the above is aimed at anyone in particular, its just my thoughts on the subject.  I respect people stances on the subject but I have some pretty strong feelings on it.  As Fry says, I do not see how a world filled with such abject misery can be overlooked by a god that is supposed to bring good to the world and its people.

 

 

The bible as afar as I can see it is nothing more than a book of over exaggerated fairy tales with very little evidence to support any of them.

 

I could easily wright a book about the down right retarded and judgmental group of baptis I've have unfortunate dealings with over the past year. All because I was asking for payment to restore an mgb for one of them, witch they instantly didn't like and wasn't a very Christian thing to do to ask for payment. But then the way I see it, asking someone to do work for you at there own expense so you can then proudly show off and then later sell for a profit is a little more than taking the piss.

 

Plus as what money I did earn out of it not only chose to live off, but also to better myself health wise by going to the gym/swimming each week because of my weak back. But somehow in their eyes as a sinful nonbeliever (apparently nonbelievers don't go to church Sundays because they are too lazy to get up early) made me out to be both a pervert and peado (something I'm ******* well not and imposable surrounded by in a gym of over 16's), to the point of actively stalking, following me and even involving the police to try and back up their wild and stupid claims.

 

And this is all from a group of people who go around claiming to be doing gods work and helping people. I suppose that's also why one of them has chosen to claim jsa for the past 4 years while also working full time as a caretaker at the church.

 

That's not to say all Christians are retarded, one swimming instructor/lifeguard I got on really well with turned out to be a church going Christian and was the nicest bloke you could ever meet.  

Edited by 1984mini25, 29 June 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[yeti21586]

I think you summed that up pretty well with your last statement not all Christians are the same some to go out of there way to help others. But unfortunately there are a lot who are egotistical self centred self righteous and only have them selfs in mind who give everyone else a bad rep.

[1984mini25]

Exactly, just like everything else it's the mindless few that spoil things for others.

 

Although it was good month or two before someone let on that the instructor/lifeguard in question was a church going Christian, up till that point I would never of know. Unlike the others who can only go around trying to convert nonbelievers or instantly slagging them off sometime even when they are in the same room within ear shot.

 

One other big gripe I do have though in to be able to counsellor and offer advice as a profession you need to be qualified. But to be a church minister and do the same thing you don't and it's also near imposable to sue the church, so they can get away with preaching pretty much what they like.

[yeti21586]

Trust me you do need qualifications and its a long winded boring process that takes years (I'm speaking from the CofE side of things) they aren't counselling qualifications but they are given Training, also they can't preach what they like (again coming from a CofE PofV).

As Christians we aren't called to pass judgement or tell everyone who doesn't belive they are going to hell etc. we are called to love every one unconditionaly like God loves us and forgive people the way God forgives us.

So it really gets to me when I see "Christians" slagging other people off talking behind there's backs etc as that's not what were supposed to be doing. One thing I will say is that I try not to force feed people my belief but I will answer questions honestly and to the best of my ability as I'm only a man and don't have all the answers.

[sonikk4]

Looking at this from a family point of view, I was raised in a Christian family, my Gran was a devout Christian and she would lay it down and in doing so totally turned my mum and uncle away from it. This was then the way we kids were brought up, to tolerate it and nothing more. I got married as a Christian as that was deemed to be the way back then but now it would a humanist wedding like my nieces this year.

No prayers no hypocrisy just their vows to each other.

Religion as shown more recently has perpetrated some of the most evils acts this world has ever seen. And I'm talking throughout the ages not what has happened in the past 100 years.

So each to their own but do not dare to tell me what I should or should not believe in. If people wish to have or follow a faith then that's their prerogative but if you use religion in any form to perpetrate killing or persecution then what sort of faith is that??

[mini93]

Couldnt be a christian anyways... they wouldnt have me listening to Slayer there

[yeti21586]

Not sure music preference has anything to do with it

[Tamworthbay]

Not sure music preference has anything to do with it

have you never heard the likes of slayer and deicide? If you haven't, save yourself and don't bother.

[Black.Ghost]

 

 

*WARNING* lots of swearing

I have not laughed that hard in ages. Absolutely brilliant. 

 

As for Stephen Fry, spot on. Absolutely spot on. 

 

I should say I am atheist. My fiancee is a Catholic, having been raised in Colombia (a very Catholic country). We are getting married in December, in the Church, which somehow means i heave to be baptised and receive first communion. I have done the research and I know that a Catholic can marry a CofE, but only with the priest's permission. I have explained this to the fiancee, but as I can't speak Spanish to argue the point, her family are saying the priest in Colombia won't do this. Which is slightly annoying. I really don't agree with the Catholic Church, I think it is outdated and not relevant to modern society. Having said that, i am going to be a huge hypocrite and go along with the whole thing. Solely because I know that she wants the church wedding and that church happens to be Catholic. I love her more than I dislike religion. 

 

I should also add here, her own views of the church are that religion is a problem, but a belief in God is right. To her, god is peace and love (sounds a cliche, I know) and that is how she lives her life. She is incredibly kind and caring but doesn't pressure people into believing (although she does want me to!). 

 

My own views of religion seem to be like many on here. I believe in science and fact more than faith and the written word. The conflicts and suffering caused by the mis-use of religion is horrendous. But it should be noted that it is the misuse or religion rather religion itself. 

 

I have no problem in believing anything they want to believe or living their life in any particular way. But equally, I believe that religious people should have the same approach and firstly, not pester people into converting, and secondly not being so judgemental of the whole world.

 

Just let everyone live in peace. If the day of judgement comes, whether you believe or not will be irrelevant. If you have lived your life in a good way will be more important. The fiancees theory is that those that believe will be judged to a higher standard, because they 'know', whereas non-believers aren't 'aware'. 

 

Madness. All of it. 

[Black.Ghost]

 

I'm just going to leave this here as well. Another awesome speech.

[Dan]

On your first point about the Bible being written in a time when we didn't understand stuff etc. are you saying that because we know more about how the earth works and how we as humans work and how Eco systems fit together, and about the solar system and Galaxy etc that that means there is no God?

No, not at all. It means there never was a God but primitive man invented one to describe and explain the universe because our brain evolved the need to problem solve before it developed the ability to reason. Your argument here still relies on there being a God, this is the same as trying to debate with a conspiracy theorist who keeps saying your point of view is absurd because it doesn't rely on a critical point of their own argument.

[Tamworthbay]

On your first point about the Bible being written in a time when we didn't understand stuff etc. are you saying that because we know more about how the earth works and how we as humans work and how Eco systems fit together, and about the solar system and Galaxy etc that that means there is no God?

No, not at all. It means there never was a God but primitive man invented one to describe and explain the universe because our brain evolved the need to problem solve before it developed the ability to reason. Your argument here still relies on there being a God, this is the same as trying to debate with a conspiracy theorist who keeps saying your point of view is absurd because it doesn't rely on a critical point of their own argument.

so there was no reasoning at all in the start of religions? My (admittedly limited) knowledge of religion shows significant levels of understanding of the world around them. Christians understood the need for distance in familial relationships way before genetics and inbreeding was understood. Equally some of the Eastern religions show amazing reasoning in the extrapolation of natural events into ideas that were incorporated into their religion.

[Ethel]

I think religion is the product of reasoning rather than the process. In quite a few cases it was the precursor to science & philosophy - Roger Bacon, Hindi Astrology, how Islam inherited and developed Aristotelian ideas.

 

The big difference is science is an ongoing process, which has rewritten itself  on occasion, while too many religions have tied themselves to fixed texts.

 

Aversion to inbreeding is an interesting tool for investigating religious ideas. Even very basic life forms avoid it, so it seems likely religious views are attempting to explain and justify what already existed. Once you've externalised such innate behavioural imperatives in a god (not irrational to think the same imperative experienced by other individuals must emanate from the same source), you can do similar with learned social behaviours, like the concept of property and not stealing. The path's then clear for a hierarchy to lay claim to your god's power as an unchallengeable proxy for their own - You might be able to plot to overthrow a king , but you've no chance with an omnipotent, omniscient, super-being who put them on the throne.

[yeti21586]

On your first point about the Bible being written in a time when we didn't understand stuff etc. are you saying that because we know more about how the earth works and how we as humans work and how Eco systems fit together, and about the solar system and Galaxy etc that that means there is no God?

No, not at all. It means there never was a God but primitive man invented one to describe and explain the universe because our brain evolved the need to problem solve before it developed the ability to reason. Your argument here still relies on there being a God, this is the same as trying to debate with a conspiracy theorist who keeps saying your point of view is absurd because it doesn't rely on a critical point of their own argument.

So are you saying that you belive that the world universe etc was formed by accident? By luck/chance?

[Dan]

I haven't said anything about what I believe at all, I was trying to help explain that you have missed the point of the above because you don't want to comprehend of a universe where there is no God. Your interpretation of what was said above seems to be that god created the universe but man destroyed God as he evolved. A lot of Christians think this is what atheism is about because they cannot move beyond a universe created by a divine power. That is fine of course and you must believe what you believe, I'm not trying to detract from it at all, but it will limit you understanding of other's point of view if you can't accept the whole of the argument.