44 replies to this topic

[I hate Brian]

Thanks for all the replies gents it's great to tap into peoples tech and experience, I'm not going to track the car or drive like I stole it. Hopefully soon I will be able to put the suspension back on and was toying with the idea of a different set-up as the rubbers have been on since 1993, anymore comments welcomed thanks.

[Dusky]

I Would put 1 questionmark to rubber cones, at this moment I see a lot of rubber degrading very fast ( knuckle joint dust caps etc etc) . Are the new cones affected by it too? Have seen some terrible cones lately, wich were supposed to be 4 years old. Could be a cheap cone, or could be the bad rubber we have lately, who will tell?

[Cooperman]

I only buy the original standard spec ones from Mini Spares. They are fine.

There is a lot of cheap junk out there which owners buy because it is 'cheap'. Buy cheap - buy twice! You get what you pay for.

 

Actually the same applies to modern coil springs. I had never had a spring break until a few years ago, but in 3 years I've had4 springs snap on modern cars, two on a Ford and one each on two BMW's. My Grandson also had one snap on his 2008 Mondeo.

For top quality coil springs for modern cars I now buy from Coil Springs Ltd, Sheffield.

[Spider]

http://www.theminifo...-versus-spring/

[Spider]

I Would put 1 questionmark to rubber cones, at this moment I see a lot of rubber degrading very fast ( knuckle joint dust caps etc etc) . Are the new cones affected by it too? Have seen some terrible cones lately, wich were supposed to be 4 years old. Could be a cheap cone, or could be the bad rubber we have lately, who will tell?

 

http://www.theminifo...e-people-using/

[gadget555]

I've had several of the newer type coil springs snap on, 95 fiesta, 2003 meriva, 2005 zafira 55 plate santa fe it;s the way that the newer spring just ends unlike the older ones that used to come back round to the coil above.

[Cooperman]

Coil-over springs work better but the problem is getting the high vertical spring loads into the damper top mountings. The bending moment generated is much greater than the standard damper top brackets are designed to take through the 4 x 1/4" UNF bolts into the side of the inner wing at the transverse bulkhead. A normal design of coil-over has a flat braced surface for the spring to sit onto, top & bottom. 

Coil-overs are still not as good as the rising rate rubber springs though, except, once again, for racing on a totally smooth track.

[Carlos W]

There are other topics on the subject, but this is an interesting read

 

http://www.theminifo...u do for living

[firstforward]

I fail to see how replacing the superb rubber cone springs, which are real 'rising rate' springs designed for the weight and configuration of the short-travel Mini suspension, with a coil spring will improve anything.
If a softer ride is wanted then a Mini is not for you. The rubber springs are relatively soft initially, then they harden up as they are compressed until, at full travel they are quite hard and have a high rate.
If a coil spring 'binds' it will be useless and it may well do this as full travel is reached, for example on a bumpy road. Why would a coil spring with a lower initial rate be any better overall? Answer, it won't.
Coil springs, with a very high initial rate are, however, ideal for racing where the initial 'hardness' improves 'turn-in' and reduced initial body roll when entering a corner on a completely smooth race track. But you don't drive a race car on the normal roads.

 

I really do not understand why you keep bashing out the same old rubbish about coils binding and rising rate. The minitastic are rising rate as I have mentioned to you on a number of posts, If set up correctly they cannot coil bind because of the bump stop. They do give a far suprerior ride and have no adverse effect on the road holding,

 

As you keep mentioning the same points, I assume you drove a mini with coil springs set up incorrectly, so may I suggest you try another car that is set up correct.

[Spider]

I am a fan of the idea of springs, it would be nice to fit and forget, that's for sure, but I'd only want to do so if it were at least equal to the Rubber Cone set up, or better, however, Spring technology just isn't there, maybe one day, but not presently.

 

 

 

I really do not understand why you keep bashing out the same old rubbish about coils binding and rising rate. The minitastic are rising rate as I have mentioned to you on a number of posts, If set up correctly they cannot coil bind because of the bump stop. They do give a far suprerior ride and have no adverse effect on the road holding,

 

As you keep mentioning the same points, I assume you drove a mini with coil springs set up incorrectly, so may I suggest you try another car that is set up correct.

 

 

Respectfully, their 'Fast Road' may have some progressive (or rising) rate to it, but it's only '2 stage' and with preloading and at normal static height, you are already in to that 2nd stage.

 

By fitting any coil type spring, you are either making the ride soft or reducing the amount of useful suspension travel, sorry, but it is not porssible to get to that 'happy medium'.

 

Measured at the Knuckle Joint, there is 53 mm of travel. This is to go from Full Rebound (extension), to Full Compression (to 50% bump stop height). I wrote to Minitastic a while back and they advised that their 'Normal' Springs have 35 mm of compression before spring bound and the 'Fast Road' have 38 mm, so we do run a bit short.

 

A common 'complaint' I have received from Springs (including Minitastic) is broken Hilos and / or broken subframe towers. Why? Because of Coil Bind.

 

<Edit: Everyone I know personally who has tried Springs have eventually gone back to Rubber Cones.>

Edited by Moke Spider, 10 November 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Spitz]

To the original poster

I didn't see these mentioned

[Cooperman]

 

I fail to see how replacing the superb rubber cone springs, which are real 'rising rate' springs designed for the weight and configuration of the short-travel Mini suspension, with a coil spring will improve anything.
If a softer ride is wanted then a Mini is not for you. The rubber springs are relatively soft initially, then they harden up as they are compressed until, at full travel they are quite hard and have a high rate.
If a coil spring 'binds' it will be useless and it may well do this as full travel is reached, for example on a bumpy road. Why would a coil spring with a lower initial rate be any better overall? Answer, it won't.
Coil springs, with a very high initial rate are, however, ideal for racing where the initial 'hardness' improves 'turn-in' and reduced initial body roll when entering a corner on a completely smooth race track. But you don't drive a race car on the normal roads.

 

I really do not understand why you keep bashing out the same old rubbish about coils binding and rising rate. The minitastic are rising rate as I have mentioned to you on a number of posts, If set up correctly they cannot coil bind because of the bump stop. They do give a far suprerior ride and have no adverse effect on the road holding,

 

As you keep mentioning the same points, I assume you drove a mini with coil springs set up incorrectly, so may I suggest you try another car that is set up correct.

 

I'm so pleased that you know so much more about the engineering involved in Mini suspension than I do that you can call my posts, which are based on engineering logic, as 'rubbish'. There is no need for that type of reply and it won't be tolerated on here, so I require you to apologise immediately please.

 

Now, what part of 'the best true rising rate springs for a classic Mini are top quality rubber cone springs' are you unable to understand, or in what way is that statement wrong? 

[Dusky]

Guys, let's chill out... ( or calm down)
A discussion is good, we all learn with it and we can all have an opinion. But no need to start using "hard " words.. Especially not against people who help a lot on this forum and years of experience :)

Edited by Dusky, 11 November 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[MontpellierVanMan]

The funny thing about this debate is that it's like reading the Motorcycle Press, but in reverse.

 

There, the Added-Value-By-Technical-Spin machine has been working for decades on the rising-rate argument, either by clever coil-winding of front or rear after-market springs to get what is in fact progressive coil-binding and therefore rising-rate, or by the geometry of the (generally) rear suspension pivots and arms to get a rising-rate out of a fixed-pitch spring (from which I guess the Mini also benefits, too, to an extent, by dint of the arrangement of its suspension pivots and attack points.)

 

Us Motorcycle Engineers would in fact give their hind-teeth to be able to use a rubber cone-spring, with its infinitely variable shape and the clever load/displacement curves that can be designed into it ! And if motorcycles came with rubber-cone springs, there would be a whole industry producing stickers, tee-shirts, and coil-springs, and running race-series carrying their brand. It's what we do.

 

As Uncle Cooperman points out, the ADDED complication for the Mini is the TINY length of spring-space available, at the front particularly - motorcycle fork springs are a doddle in comparison. Big diameter and small length are the worst possible combination for differential coil-winding ................. and for predictable and repeatable manufacturing results.

 

Indeed, as you say, "No-one can tell us, in proper engineering terms, how a coil spring on a Mini road car can have benefits which outweigh the disadvantages ............... "

 

This debate could be solved by engineering (comparing load/displacement curves) which is why it has had to be restricted to the confines of bar-talk.

 

Not that I've anything against that ..........

Edited by MontpellierVanMan, 11 November 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Steve220]

I love debates like this. You get everyone from giving you the hard mathematical facts all the way up to people having them on their car and loving them. It's the problem with theory - as in theory, communism works! However, you'd never go that route.

I've driven a few minis with the spring set on them and felt alongside a good set of aftermarket dampers they make the UK roads a bit more tolerable. However. Not sure how they'd cope with a track day.