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What Should I Rebore My 1300 Metro Engine To And What Pistons Should I Buy?

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#16 Cooperman

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 11:43 AM

Engines which have a 286 car and where that cam is correct for that application do require frequent refreshing. It is a rally cam for tarmac rallies or similar use.

I strip mine after every 6 or 7 rallies, fit new main, big-end and crank thrust bearings, change the oil pump and fit new rings after every 15 to 20 events.

At the sort of revs demanded by a 286 the engine will wear quickly because of the very high piston speeds. But if you are not using those sort of revs all the time with a 286 fitted, then you have the wrong cam.

It really is not a road cam. Imagine driving around the roads at over 5000 rpm most of the time with the added noise of the SC gears. I have to do road sections on rallies and it is a slow noisy process.

My standard Innocenti 1300 Cooper Export, with its 510 cam, standard Cooper gear ratios and a 3.44:1 FDR (car now sold) was so much nicer to drive on the road and was brisker as it wasn't revving its nuts off all the time. The torque was superb as well, which is what is needed for road use.

Cam selection is more than just reading the two 'Comics' and fitting the wrong one for 'bar-room b******t'.



#17 Dusky

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 12:13 PM

Over camming is one of the best ways to get the most pub points you know.. ;)

#18 Carlos W

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 12:14 PM

Over camming is one of the best ways to get the most pub points you know.. ;)

 

Not as good as a supercharger



#19 olliewiltshire

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 11:57 AM

thanks for everyone inputs. After removing the engine and getting the block and parts looked at, it turns out my cam is badly worn due to the cam followers not being replaced when the cam was put in by the previous owner and the bores are too. As i am going to be boring it im thinking of just going to a 1380 as its a weekend/show car now. What pistons and cam would you guys recommend for a 1380 set up? im looking for it to be fast road preferably. Also will my HIFF44 carb cope with it being a 1380 or is twin carbs better?

The manilfod i currently have is a maniflow lcb stage 2 lcb with larger centre pipe but i guess for a 1380 i need to get a big bore manifold and exhaust system?

 

thanks again for everyones help :) 



#20 olliewiltshire

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 11:58 AM

Engines which have a 286 car and where that cam is correct for that application do require frequent refreshing. It is a rally cam for tarmac rallies or similar use.

I strip mine after every 6 or 7 rallies, fit new main, big-end and crank thrust bearings, change the oil pump and fit new rings after every 15 to 20 events.

At the sort of revs demanded by a 286 the engine will wear quickly because of the very high piston speeds. But if you are not using those sort of revs all the time with a 286 fitted, then you have the wrong cam.

It really is not a road cam. Imagine driving around the roads at over 5000 rpm most of the time with the added noise of the SC gears. I have to do road sections on rallies and it is a slow noisy process.

My standard Innocenti 1300 Cooper Export, with its 510 cam, standard Cooper gear ratios and a 3.44:1 FDR (car now sold) was so much nicer to drive on the road and was brisker as it wasn't revving its nuts off all the time. The torque was superb as well, which is what is needed for road use.

Cam selection is more than just reading the two 'Comics' and fitting the wrong one for 'bar-room b******t'.

thanks for everyone inputs. After removing the engine and getting the block and parts looked at, it turns out my cam is badly worn due to the cam followers not being replaced when the cam was put in by the previous owner and the bores are too. As i am going to be boring it im thinking of just going to a 1380 as its a weekend/show car now. What pistons and cam would you guys recommend for a 1380 set up? im looking for it to be fast road preferably. Also will my HIFF44 carb cope with it being a 1380 or is twin carbs better?

The manilfod i currently have is a maniflow lcb stage 2 lcb with larger centre pipe but i guess for a 1380 i need to get a big bore manifold and exhaust system?

 

thanks again for everyones help :) 



#21 Dusky

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:03 PM

1380 is a waste of a good block. Search the forum, you don't gain anything noticable on a road going car.
Save a block and just bore it to the next size up. Leaves you more room for error aswell, if something goes wrong you can rebore it another few times.



#22 olliewiltshire

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:22 PM

1380 is a waste of a good block. Search the forum, you don't gain anything noticable on a road going car.
Save a block and just bore it to the next size up. Leaves you more room for error aswell, if something goes wrong you can rebore it another few times.

I didnt think of it like that, what kind of bhp can you get out of a 1295?



#23 olliewiltshire

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:17 PM

I have been looking into it and what is the better piston, powermax or omega? i Want to do it right the first time so hopefully the engine lasts and i wont need to rebore again hah?



#24 Dusky

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:20 PM

 

1380 is a waste of a good block. Search the forum, you don't gain anything noticable on a road going car.
Save a block and just bore it to the next size up. Leaves you more room for error aswell, if something goes wrong you can rebore it another few times.

I didnt think of it like that, what kind of bhp can you get out of a 1295?

 

Max difference would be like 4 bhp orso, nothing noticable.

If you want the engine to last the longest I think fitting liners is the best, those should wear at a lesser rate . But I'm not 100% sure so someone needs to comfirm this.
I use P21253 pistons from AE , should be good up to 7K rpm, wich is good for your 286 cam



#25 nicklouse

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:24 PM

 

1380 is a waste of a good block. Search the forum, you don't gain anything noticable on a road going car.
Save a block and just bore it to the next size up. Leaves you more room for error aswell, if something goes wrong you can rebore it another few times.

I didnt think of it like that, what kind of bhp can you get out of a 1295?

 

lets just say when my 1293 was on the rollers when they were done they said it was a good 1380. );



#26 nicklouse

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:25 PM

I have been looking into it and what is the better piston, powermax or omega? i Want to do it right the first time so hopefully the engine lasts and i wont need to rebore again hah?

Omega. but there are different grades.



#27 rally1380

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:26 PM

Definitely listen to the folks above regarding 1380's.......as my TMF name suggests I have got a 1380 A series in my rally car, and once I wear it out (or break it!) it is either a very expensive task of getting the block relined, or dumping that block and finding another (nice 1293 stashed under my work bench tho ;D )

 

So what you should do.....bore your current block to 1293.

 

Buy decent quality pistons.

 

Stick with your HIFF carb as it is a very good carb and twins can be a pain (had both)....also, twin SU's take up heaps of room at the back of the engine and make room a wee bit tight.

 

Make sure all your current components like your crank are in good condition before slapping them back in.....they might require machine work so budget that in too.

 

 

Built right you can expect to see 90 BHP ish....maybe more.  Although power is for pub bragging, torque is the important figure.



#28 olliewiltshire

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:47 PM

thanks alot guys, does anyone know of a good and relatively cheap company who would cnc machine port my head for me to give me a bit more power?



#29 Cooperman

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:19 PM

Ollie,

Don't get seduced by ultimate power. The maximum power is only generated at high revs which you don't use very often in a road car. Even a 266 cam only gives peak power at 5700 rpm and the 286 gives it at 6400 rpm.

What you need is lots of lovely TORQUE. That is what gives best acceleration and smooth driving through the rev range.

Too many people go on about the huge power they can get, but then find that it happens at only between 6000 and 6500 rpm - revs you almost never use unless racing or seriously rallying. On the road you need loads of torque between about 3000 and 5500 rpm.

Sadly the two 'Comics' bang on about power, but they don't understand how torque and power respectively are applied to road driving.

If you were building an out-and-out race or hill-climb competition Mini which would be taken to and from events on a trailer the advice would be different.

You are dealing here with a 57-year-old design of classic car with an ancient engine. It will never be fast, in modern terms, but it can be made nasty to drive by over-camming and new blocks will never be cast, so every 1380 is a move towards one more scrap block.

Why not just build a 'nice' engine and enjoy 1960's-feel retro driving.



#30 Dusky

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:47 PM

Besides, it's way easier to pick up your lady friends in a classic mini with a normal engine than when you'll  try to pick them up whilst constantly needing to rev the engine etc etc. Just something to consider  :bah:







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