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End Float Disaster! Help!


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#16 Swift_General

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 11:33 PM

I don't have a manual to hand this minute, but the bearing to journal running clearances should be 0.001" to 0.0025" from memory. This is not called 'float - the float is the longitudinal movement of the installed crankshaft, Measure the crankshaft journals for both big-ends and mains with a micrometer screw gauge and establish the sizes. They will be either standard, -0.010", -0.020", -0.030" or -0.040". Then appropriate undersize bearings can be bought. You can finally check with Plastigauge. If you have 0-57 mm that would be a 20 thou undersize journal.
 
To convert mm to inches, divide the mm reading by 25.4. You must have all dimensions in inches.

Yeah I think that's what I am going to do from now on, concert all metric measurements to imperial.

Ah I think that's where the confusion started, it was longitudal movement that I was measuring, as I think I may have measured it wrong, so I have ordered some plastigauge to take the measurements and will report back here with the findings.

In terms with the thrust bearing, I have noticed that the oversized bearings are 10 thou or 20 thou each side, not a total oversize of 20 thou, so this should be able to cover the end float.
I still think you're getting confused here. Thrust bearings are available in oversizes of 3 thou as Cooperman has said and also 30 thou, not 10 or 20 thou which I suspect you have got from main bearing shell oversizes. End float and main bearing running clearance are separate and independent of one another.

Edited by Swift_General, 15 December 2016 - 11:35 PM.


#17 panky

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 11:35 PM

You need to accurately measure the the crank pins and big end journals with a micrometer and compare the results with the limits in the manual. If below the limit, which sounds like it is, then a re-grind and the correct sized bearings will be needed.


Edited by panky, 16 December 2016 - 10:07 AM.


#18 Cooperman

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:02 AM

I am a bit concerned that the OP does not quite understand how an engine is built/re-built and what measurements are needed and how to do those measurements. There seems to be some potential for a set of expensive errors here and I think we need to explain very clearly what needs to be done.

 

First of all, the crankshaft has both main bearing journals and big-end bearing journals. The crankshaft can be accurately machined to give smaller diameter journals, bot main and big-ends, to correct wear and scoring in the journals. Thus the journals become undersize and there are standard under-sizes for which the correct bearing shells are available. With a Mini engine these are normally -0.010" (ten thou), -0.020" (20 thou), -0.030" and 0.040". The backs of the replacement shells are marked with this undersize and the undersize is a specific part number. The crankshaft needs to be inspected to see if the journals are unmarked and if they are within manufacturer's tolerance for the size which they are at. For this a micrometer screw gauge is vital (not a digital vernier as that is not accurate enough). Also check that the journals are truly circular by measuring at several places around the circumference. Only then can the big-end and main bearing shells be order from a good supplier. The running clearance of the bearings to journals needs to be 0.001" to 0.0025", but if the crankshaft is within tolerance for the size to which it is ground and the correct bearing shells are fitted this tolerance will be achieved. 'Plastigauge' can be used to verify the clearance, although this is mostly only done on high performance or competition engines.

 

Moving on to the crankshaft end-float. When installed with the correct bearing shells and a set of standard thrust bearings (sometimes called 'thrust washers) the end-to-end movement of the crankshaft, known as the longitudinal float) can be measured using a Dial Test Indicator (DTI) with a magnetic base. Ste the DTI pointer onto a crankshaft web with the DTI pointer shaft in the horizontal position and aligned with the crankshaft. Using a thin screwdriver gently prise the crankshaft as far as it will go one way and zero the scale on the DTI. Then gently prise it as fr as it will go the other way and read the movement of the DTI. The required final float is between 0.002" and 0.005". If it is more than 0.005" and up to 0.008" you can use a single pair of 0.003" oversize thrust washers to bring it down to a float within the correct figures. If it is over 0.008" and under 0.011" you use two pairs of +0.003" over size to bring it down by 0.006" to an acceptable level. If the float is over 0.011" you require one set of 0.003" oversize and a single pair of 0.030" thrusts which have to be machined down to give the correct float of 0.002" to 0.005" after final assembly. This needs the proper machining equipment and some very accurate measuring and machining. 

 

Use plenty of engine assembly lube during all stages of assembly. Make sure the torque settings are done correctly with an accurate torque wrench. 

 

I hope this is clear, but if it is not, then think carefully about continuing with the build until it is fully understood how this works in practice and what needs to be achieved. It must be done EXACTLY right, which is why professional engine builders are not cheap with their labour costs. Each engine is assembled at least twice, sometimes more, with one or two 'trial builds' along the way.

 

We are all here to help, but in the end you MUST understand fully what you are doing.



#19 Magneto

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 12:41 AM

One thing many inexperienced engine builders do is use plenty of lube between the bearing shell and the rod or crank webs - do not do this, the only place the lube should be is between the rotating surfaces.



#20 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:00 AM

I am a bit concerned that the OP does not quite understand how an engine is built/re-built and what measurements are needed and how to do those measurements. There seems to be some potential for a set of expensive errors here and I think we need to explain very clearly what needs to be done.
 
First of all, the crankshaft has both main bearing journals and big-end bearing journals. The crankshaft can be accurately machined to give smaller diameter journals, bot main and big-ends, to correct wear and scoring in the journals. Thus the journals become undersize and there are standard under-sizes for which the correct bearing shells are available. With a Mini engine these are normally -0.010" (ten thou), -0.020" (20 thou), -0.030" and 0.040". The backs of the replacement shells are marked with this undersize and the undersize is a specific part number. The crankshaft needs to be inspected to see if the journals are unmarked and if they are within manufacturer's tolerance for the size which they are at. For this a micrometer screw gauge is vital (not a digital vernier as that is not accurate enough). Also check that the journals are truly circular by measuring at several places around the circumference. Only then can the big-end and main bearing shells be order from a good supplier. The running clearance of the bearings to journals needs to be 0.001" to 0.0025", but if the crankshaft is within tolerance for the size to which it is ground and the correct bearing shells are fitted this tolerance will be achieved. 'Plastigauge' can be used to verify the clearance, although this is mostly only done on high performance or competition engines.
 
Moving on to the crankshaft end-float. When installed with the correct bearing shells and a set of standard thrust bearings (sometimes called 'thrust washers) the end-to-end movement of the crankshaft, known as the longitudinal float) can be measured using a Dial Test Indicator (DTI) with a magnetic base. Ste the DTI pointer onto a crankshaft web with the DTI pointer shaft in the horizontal position and aligned with the crankshaft. Using a thin screwdriver gently prise the crankshaft as far as it will go one way and zero the scale on the DTI. Then gently prise it as fr as it will go the other way and read the movement of the DTI. The required final float is between 0.002" and 0.005". If it is more than 0.005" and up to 0.008" you can use a single pair of 0.003" oversize thrust washers to bring it down to a float within the correct figures. If it is over 0.008" and under 0.011" you use two pairs of +0.003" over size to bring it down by 0.006" to an acceptable level. If the float is over 0.011" you require one set of 0.003" oversize and a single pair of 0.030" thrusts which have to be machined down to give the correct float of 0.002" to 0.005" after final assembly. This needs the proper machining equipment and some very accurate measuring and machining. 
 
Use plenty of engine assembly lube during all stages of assembly. Make sure the torque settings are done correctly with an accurate torque wrench. 
 
I hope this is clear, but if it is not, then think carefully about continuing with the build until it is fully understood how this works in practice and what needs to be achieved. It must be done EXACTLY right, which is why professional engine builders are not cheap with their labour costs. Each engine is assembled at least twice, sometimes more, with one or two 'trial builds' along the way.
 
We are all here to help, but in the end you MUST understand fully what you are doing.


Thank you for a very detailed break down! This is my first car restoration project so I am new to this sort of thing.

I think I'm getting the geometry tolerancing terms all muddled up hence causing the confusion with the issues I am facing and I apologise.

I have ordered a precision micrometer to check all of the journals before continuing, and from there I would know excatly the next steps I need to take. As I have previously mentioned the engine block was rebored to 1293 from 1275 and were fitted with new pistons and big end bearings, which I was under the impression would have been checked for the tolerancing range before giving it back to me, so I will chase them up to find out exactly what they have done, in order to work out the next steps.

With the crankshaft end float, I have done excatly what you have described above and but got worried when I discovered my end float with std thrust washers were 0.0134" and couldn't find the correct washers online, but since starting this post I have understood that I was getting my metric and imperial measurements muddled up after following the Haynes manuals measurements which are in metric. So I think it is as you have described I will need to get a pair of 0.003" and 0.030" washers and get them machined down to the correct size. But will give it an another measure tomorrow with a fresh mind.

It's been a long day and I think I started to panic when I saw crazy numbers but it's all good now that you guys are helping and I appreciate it.

Will report back tomorrow with my findings! And once again thank you!

#21 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 01:13 AM

One thing many inexperienced engine builders do is use plenty of lube between the bearing shell and the rod or crank webs - do not do this, the only place the lube should be is between the rotating surfaces.


Of course!

#22 Carlos W

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:24 AM

The machine shop should've given you the size they've reground the crank to.

 

ie 10 thou under. you then buy the corresponding shells. 



#23 tiger99

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 02:28 PM

It is usually best to get the machine shop to supply the shells and thrust washers, pistons and rings, and all other bits that are being changed, depending on the extent of work needed, so you know that everything will fit correctly. A good engine reconditioners such as Gosnays is the sort of place to go. There is no need whatsoever for a Mini specialist if there is not one nearby, unless the engine is something very special. General engine reconditioners are often cheaper.



#24 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:53 PM

Right, situation update!

 

After calling the machine shop to find out more about what they did to the crank and as it turned out, they give me the wrong crank back which were 20thou undersized. So, I went back to collect my crank that I took in the first place and it was confirmed that the crank were standard size with standard bearing/washers.

 

I will still take detailed measurements of all journals to verify that they are within the standard range and will use plastigauge to ensure that they journals and bearings are within the manufactures tolerances.

 

Will let you know my findings when I take the measurements! fingers crossed its still within the standard sizes!



#25 Carlos W

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:57 PM

Right, situation update!

 

After calling the machine shop to find out more about what they did to the crank and as it turned out, they give me the wrong crank back which were 20thou undersized. So, I went back to collect my crank that I took in the first place and it was confirmed that the crank were standard size with standard bearing/washers.

 

I will still take detailed measurements of all journals to verify that they are within the standard range and will use plastigauge to ensure that they journals and bearings are within the manufactures tolerances.

 

Will let you know my findings when I take the measurements! fingers crossed its still within the standard sizes!

It's all a learning curve mate. I was there 6 months ago



#26 panky

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:07 PM

Thank goodness for that, glad they admitted their mistake but doesn't take back the stress it's caused you, at least you will have a nice shiny new micrometer to play with ;D



#27 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:23 PM

 

Right, situation update!

 

After calling the machine shop to find out more about what they did to the crank and as it turned out, they give me the wrong crank back which were 20thou undersized. So, I went back to collect my crank that I took in the first place and it was confirmed that the crank were standard size with standard bearing/washers.

 

I will still take detailed measurements of all journals to verify that they are within the standard range and will use plastigauge to ensure that they journals and bearings are within the manufactures tolerances.

 

Will let you know my findings when I take the measurements! fingers crossed its still within the standard sizes!

It's all a learning curve mate. I was there 6 months ago

 

Think I might go bald by the time I finished with the project due the amount of stress! ;)



#28 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:24 PM

Thank goodness for that, glad they admitted their mistake but doesn't take back the stress it's caused you, at least you will have a nice shiny new micrometer to play with ;D

 

indeed I do! not only one but three micrometers! 



#29 Carlos W

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:39 PM

Obviously you need to start again with your end float.

 

And I'm bald



#30 ClassicAlex

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 04:46 PM

Obviously you need to start again with your end float.

 

And I'm bald

of course!

 

and I don't think I'm that far behind!






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