43 replies to this topic

[andyapanel]

I like shimming my balljoints. It is very satisfying. I can imagine if you were paying for it, cheaper might be best, though.

[Alex_B]

 

I am also curious as to the differences between the CMJ / Delta Mini ball joints vs Guessworks ones. I have fitted a few sets of Guessworks joints now and have been very impressed with the quality but have seen some differences of opinion posted online, unsure on how much should be read into that however. 

But overall I definitely see the benefits of the fit & forget joints, it's hard to justify the cost of fitting standard type joints when factoring labour costs / time involved in lapping them in compared with how much quicker it is to fit the sealed items. On customer cars it's a no brainer in my opinion, glad to see them becoming more available over here now!

 

I didn't realise there was any lapping in to be done. I thought they just fitted in the suspension arm as long as the hole in the arm was clear?

 

The quality of off the shelf balljoints are all pretty poor from what I found with quite a variation on high and low points on the ball and cup. As a result when assembling and setting up the shims you can get it to be acceptable in areas but locked solid or loose as anything in other areas which leads to you choosing to set them up too tight or too loose. If you lap them in you can achieve decent results that last but it takes a lot of time and faffing around, fine if you're doing it as a hobby or if your time is "free" but if you're paying someone for their time it makes them quite expensive. 

[WanaGo]

I am also curious as to the differences between the CMJ / Delta Mini ball joints vs Guessworks ones. I have fitted a few sets of Guessworks joints now and have been very impressed with the quality but have seen some differences of opinion posted online, unsure on how much should be read into that however. 

But overall I definitely see the benefits of the fit & forget joints, it's hard to justify the cost of fitting standard type joints when factoring labour costs / time involved in lapping them in compared with how much quicker it is to fit the sealed items. On customer cars it's a no brainer in my opinion, glad to see them becoming more available over here now!

 

In terms of the differences, apparently the Delta ones (CMJ / Minispares etc) are rigously tested and have a claimed estimated life of 50,000km or 10 years, while the Guessworks one apparently have not undergone the same testing as that manufactuerer did not have the capability to do so. While they may be of similar quality, I dont believe they can truely state that (which they dont), due to this reason.

The Guessworks one also have 8% less angular rotation than the Delta ones, and also have a higher base. How this changes things like geometery, I am not 100% certain.

I know the Delta ones undergo development all the time to constantly improve (delta-mini.com site stating 2023 version is the one being offered now - how its changed, I dont know), I have no idea if the Guessworks one do this type of constant improvements also - potentially not, just have a set design and keep producing what works.

What it means for us - I dont know. Both I am sure perform well, and its just the price point which likely will steer people to their final decision.

Edited by WanaGo, 20 March 2023 - 11:34 PM.

[Spider]

 

I am also curious as to the differences between the CMJ / Delta Mini ball joints vs Guessworks ones. I have fitted a few sets of Guessworks joints now and have been very impressed with the quality but have seen some differences of opinion posted online, unsure on how much should be read into that however. 

But overall I definitely see the benefits of the fit & forget joints, it's hard to justify the cost of fitting standard type joints when factoring labour costs / time involved in lapping them in compared with how much quicker it is to fit the sealed items. On customer cars it's a no brainer in my opinion, glad to see them becoming more available over here now!

 

In terms of the differences, apparently the Delta ones (CMJ / Minispares etc) are rigously tested and have a claimed estimated life of 50,000km or 10 years, while the Guessworks one apparently have not undergone the same testing as that manufactuerer did not have the capability to do so. While they may be of similar quality, I dont believe they can truely state that (which they dont), due to this reason.

The Guessworks one also have 8% less angular rotation than the Delta ones, and also have a higher base. How this changes things like geometery, I am not 100% certain.

I know the Delta ones undergo development all the time to constantly improve (delta-mini.com site stating 2023 version is the one being offered now - how its changed, I dont know), I have no idea if the Guessworks one do this type of constant improvements also - potentially not, just have a set design and keep producing what works.

What it means for us - I dont know. Both I am sure perform well, and its just the price point which likely will steer people to their final decision.

 

 

I haven't tested the Delta ones to measure an angle, but the stock items have an included angle 50⁰ of movement and they need every degree of that.

[nicklouse]

Mr Guess has been doing some investigating.

https://youtu.be/4CBXaG2BwUU

[DeadSquare]

Also available a bit cheaper for 4-off

MAINTENANCE FREE BALL JOINTS - (CAR SET of 4) C-GSJ166KIT

 

 

 

£224.64 inc vat.  for 4 ball-joints !
 

That just shows what inflation does to the Pound in your pocket !

My uncle's 117MNP Mini Pick-up, from the same garage as Barrie Williams' famous 120MNP International Welsh Rally winning 1071 Cooper S,  cost £360-00 and that included the garage taxing it.

 

[sonscar]

Watched the video.Are we going to run out of articulation and snap the pins by constant contact with the collar?or is there enough angular movement in the required directions?More information required?Steve..

[WanaGo]

Mr Guess has been doing some investigating.

https://youtu.be/4CBXaG2BwUU

 

Neat video. But I personally am not sure which is which from the non-original ones. Can someone enlighten me?

I am assuming one is Delta, one is Guessworks and the other is the OG

[maccers]

I just received 4 from MiniSpares today. Waiting for the tools to fit them. There is a small range on the torque setting, 70 to 80 when the Haynes suggests 75 lbf ft . Is the range on the new kit optional or is there some feel or anything to watch for? I suppose 70 will do when 75 is suggested, esp when using feel with a ring spanner is on the cards. I ordered a 1.5” AF open crows foot for the job. Probably another single use tool but safety etc. Possibly happy to share tool with anyone needing it for a one time use !! Just send it back!!

[Pete649]

Watched the video.Are we going to run out of articulation and snap the pins by constant contact with the collar?or is there enough angular movement in the required directions?More information required?Steve..

So, looking at the video the original type have the most angular travel and therefore are the ones to get?

[sonscar]

Who knows?They might all be ok,or none of them might be ok.How much is needed allowing a safety allowance for bump stop degredation.
On a non Mini I modified myself I ran out of damper articulation and the result was exciting.This was on the rear.As I said more information required.Steve..

[Spider]

 

Watched the video.Are we going to run out of articulation and snap the pins by constant contact with the collar?or is there enough angular movement in the required directions?More information required?Steve..

So, looking at the video the original type have the most angular travel and therefore are the ones to get?

 

 

Some time ago in one of the many threads on the forum I did make a post regarding the amount of movement needed in the Ball Joints and when they reach their limits. This was based on standard parts and also examined allowances for if Bump and rebound stops were lost as well as what happens when the lower arms are extended to dial in negative camber.

 

As mentioned above, the stock joints have (from memory) 50⁰ of total movement and they need every single degree of that.

 

When the lower arms are extended, be it fixed or adjustable arms, then to avoid the Lower Ball Joint reaching lock before full droop is reached, it is vital that the rebound stop be packed up to reduce the amount of droop that is achieved, otherwise, sooner of later, you can expect a broken lower ball joint, regardless of who's it is - and here I am referring to stock or replicas of the stock joints. Even the factory mention this when fitting their negative camber lower arms, though, they don't say why;-

 

 

Now I see that the maintenance free joints have less articulation, I know what I'll be doing when I finish typing this post.

[absx2]

I`ve had a mini or two in daily use for forty years and I find it difficult to get my head around the supposed benefits of a modified ball joint when the original design has not given me any trouble in tens of thousand of miles.

 

For all you youngsters out there it`s called a grease gun   

 

You pay your money and take your choice but considering all the variables in the suspension geometry they seem to be a giant leap backwards in terms of safety.

[Lplus]

 

 

Watched the video.Are we going to run out of articulation and snap the pins by constant contact with the collar?or is there enough angular movement in the required directions?More information required?Steve..

So, looking at the video the original type have the most angular travel and therefore are the ones to get?

 

 

Some time ago in one of the many threads on the forum I did make a post regarding the amount of movement needed in the Ball Joints and when they reach their limits. This was based on standard parts and also examined allowances for if Bump and rebound stops were lost as well as what happens when the lower arms are extended to dial in negative camber.

 

As mentioned above, the stock joints have (from memory) 50⁰ of total movement and they need every single degree of that.

 

When the lower arms are extended, be it fixed or adjustable arms, then to avoid the Lower Ball Joint reaching lock before full droop is reached, it is vital that the rebound stop be packed up to reduce the amount of droop that is achieved, otherwise, sooner of later, you can expect a broken lower ball joint, regardless of who's it is - and here I am referring to stock or replicas of the stock joints. Even the factory mention this when fitting their negative camber lower arms, though, they don't say why;-

 

 

Now I see that the maintenance free joints have less articulation, I know what I'll be doing when I finish typing this post.

 

I wonder if it is possible to position 1/8 in plate under the platform and weld it to the arm along the outer edge.  I imagine the top arms are steel not cast iron.

[Spider]

I`ve had a mini or two in daily use for forty years and I find it difficult to get my head around the supposed benefits of a modified ball joint when the original design has not given me any trouble in tens of thousand of miles.

 

For all you youngsters out there it`s called a grease gun   

 

You pay your money and take your choice but considering all the variables in the suspension geometry they seem to be a giant leap backwards in terms of safety.

 

I gotta say, I too was happy with the original ball joints, like you say, as long as they get greased, they lasted a very long time. The problem I've run it to though is the offerings available today aren't the quality of the originals, some need changing at the same time as an oil change

 

 

I wonder if it is possible to position 1/8 in plate under the platform and weld it to the arm along the outer edge.  I imagine the top arms are steel not cast iron.

 

The Arms are forged steel, you can weld to them.