54 replies to this topic

[almichie]

This is here to hopefully help some of you out there in making a decision about the use of jonspeed racing in nuneaton.

I was in the market to have a brand new engine and gearbox for my 1966 cooper.

I ended up buying a full conversion kit, kit number 3. the one with everything supplied.

I had a new engine, 1275 +60thou - plus pitons. new crank grind, unltra light flywheel, vernier timing gear, sw5-07 cam,
gearbox overhauled, etc etc etc totalling £2500, now you would think that £2500 would buy you
rather a good quality engine...

Dear Sirs

following our telephone conversation i have had a think about the whole situation. And considering all the problems i have had with the engine, and associated parts, i'm not happy in keeping the unit. It seems from day one there were problems, the crank machine being sub-standard - and on a highly tune engine it would cause all sorts of issues which im sure you'll agree with. then there were problems with the parts in the kit which were missing, i have an injection lcb and a standard size one at that with a missing plug. the carb wasn't all there, there was a missing back plate (for the throttle and choke cables), and throttle retun springs. still i pushed on with the installation and bought the missing parts and carried on. the centre oil pick up wasn' fitted correctly and fouled the crank. it took me 3 hours to take it out and re-ft it correctly. I askd for a 3:1 final drive i find out this week from a friend that rebuilds boxes that i still have the 3:4 that was fitted originally.

Then the piston failed, that can easily be put down to one of 2 things, manufacture fault or incorrect ring fitting. Tony fitted the pistons to the con rods and fitted them into the bores.

I have had endless problems with breathing issues. i was told by Tony that the "moddified breathing" sytem that you were supplying with the kits wasn't needed. let me tell you now it surely is! with the engine under load the single breather just isn't enough.

Then whilst on the rolling road yesterday a valve seized open. the head was removed there and then to assess damage to the engine and none had been caused. but white metal was found in the rocker cover and once the valve was out it was plain to see that this is what had caused the valve to seize. so after trying to save the valve it was decided a new valve and guide would be fitted. once it was all back together the head stud snapped at 50 LBS/FT.

then to put the final nail in the coffin, driving onto the trailer oil pressure dropped off and the engine stopped.

I think from the above there is cause for a total refund. I am extreemly unhappy to say the least. having spent the best part of £3000 (without taking into consideration my time) on an engine i expect it to work for more than 400 miles at a time.

Please feel free to contact me on my moble which is to disscuss this email and refunding the money.

Alistair Michie

Then following a further conversation, in that they have said that they want nothing to do with the engine anymore i replied...

Dear Sirs,

Following a telephone conversation with Tony on 6th November 2007 at approximatly 1730. I have had a more thorough investigation in to the Sale of goods Act 1979. You may wish to note that "It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract"... "If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". "..."For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages"... "If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit". I am asking for an official reply to this. if i haven't heard anything in the next 48 hours then i will be consulting legal advice.


Alistair Michie



i wait....

I have done everything they asked in running in the engine.

[Jake Blues]

Jonspeed’s comments on this matter: (apolgies for the length)

Jonspeed supplied a short engine with just the pistons and con-rods in situ, other parts were not assembled, crank etc.
The customer built the engine and ran it in correctly for 450 miles at which point a ring shoulder on one piston failed. This was agreed to be a manufacturers error not a fitting error which was accepted by both Jonspeed and the customer.
Jonspeed invited the customer to return the engine and Jonspeed replaced the piston at no cost accepting responsibility for the replacement. Jonspeed sent the piston back to the manufacturers for analysis..decision waiting.
The customer reported that one journal on the crankshaft was one thou down, Jonspeed returned the crank to the machine shop that did the job, they found no error or variation but, as a good will gesture, Jonspeed supplied another crank at no cost to the customer.
An additional job done on the engine, by Jonspeed was the fitting of a central oil pickup. These are bought in from a reputable source. It was found that the central oil pick up was fouling the crankshaft, not a problem either Jonspeed or the supplier had encountered, until now.
As Jonspeed hadn’t at any point assembled the engine, and this problem had never been found before there was no way they could have foreseen this.
At this point relationships between Jonspeed and the customer remained amicable.
Jonspeed had also supplied a modified head but didn’t fit it to the engine, this was done by the customer. The engine was correctly run in and did 450 miles before the piston failure.
When the engine was returned, the head was not returned with it.
The allegation is that swarf was found in the head and this was from the original modifying. Jonspeed dispute this as if this swarf was there on fitment, the engine could not have possibly done the 450 miles it did before the piston failed.
The head unit was never returned to Jonspeed, was fitted by the customer and in the customer’s care while Jonspeed had the short engine. The question arises as to how could the swarf have come from Jonspeed as alleged?
The engine was supplied with brand new studs. It is possible that the customer could have sheared one off at 50 lbs/ft but unlikely. Jonspeed did their own tests on calibrated equipment and found the shear point to be between 80 and 100 lbs/ft.
Was the rebuilt engine run with one stud snapped? Jonspeed do not know as they did not fit the head. At this point the customer said that everything was still OK.
The customer was advised to use Southam Mini Centre to carry out the rolling road session as they are extremely experienced in tuning newly built engines and know not to rev the engines over a sensible limit. Jonspeed is not sure if this advice was followed but believe it wasn’t.
On the third run, the crankshaft suffered failure.
The crank was not fitted by Jonspeed so they have no control over the accurate fitting and bedding in.
Jonspeed have stated quite categorically that if they had built the engine, there would be no question about a complete refund.
The customer demanded that Jonspeed collect the car, remove the engine, fix it, get it running, refit the engine and deliver the vehicle back for FREE. Jonspeed reiterated that, if they had built and fitted the engine that is exactly what would have happened.
Jonspeed offered to rebuild the returned engine, at NO labour cost and parts at trade cost, this was not accepted by the customer.
As a result of emails sent and the post on TMF this offer is now rescinded.

[miniboo]

Bump

[almichie]

well, that is very interesting indeed.

When i returned the engine for the piston fittment the head was with the engine. i offered it to Tony but i was told that it wouldn't be needed!

as for the crank shaft, tony rebuilt the engine the 2nd time. the only thing that failed when i built the engine was a piston that was claimed to have had a manufacturing fault.

following the jopnspeed build, the valve seized due to white metal in the oil, on the rebuild (by jonspeed) it should be noted that jonspeed had fitted a centre mainstrap (i was told this and trusted them to fit it). and then crankshaft failure happened...

the engine was and would never have been driven with a snapped headstud, the rolling road will vouch for this. carl himself stated he had taken them up to 80lbs.

as for advise for running in the engine, it was said "just take it easy for a few hundred miles, that should be fine" no sheets giving specifics, no advice for oils to be used etc etc

advice given for rolling road use didn't happen... if i had known that they recommended a rolling road and that if engine failure on that rolling road would have meant refund then i would have happily taken it there.

not much more i can say really other than i really am very upset and disappointed. and quite frankly if i had known i would have gone down the v-max route for the extra moneys.

it seems that what ever i do or say now isn't going to result in any sort of refund or repairs so i have to live with the fact that i handed over almost £3000 for 900 miles.

[Sam]

it seems that what ever i do or say now isn't going to result in any sort of refund or repairs so i have to live with the fact that i handed over almost £3000 for 900 miles.

Don't give up, £3000 is a lot of money to lose. Might be an idea to seek legal advice?

[Jammy]

as for advise for running in the engine, it was said "just take it easy for a few hundred miles, that should be fine" no sheets giving specifics, no advice for oils to be used etc etc

I'm not going to comment on the overall situation, but after I had an engine rebuild completed by Bill Richards I was given the same advice as you've had for running the engine in. There seems to be two schools of thought on this, one that fits with the above, and another where by you run the engine in in stages. I've heard people have success with both methods.

As Sam says, £3k is a lot of money to lose without exploring all avenues.

[mk3 Cooper S]

So from what I can gather from the Forum is the following phrases may apply??

Edited by mk3 Cooper S, 08 November 2007 - 12:07 PM.

[Baldspeed Racing]

Jonspeed are local to me and I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole from the stuff I have heard about them. I get my stuff sorted from Southam Mini Metro Centre or Min-its

[mk3 Cooper S]

Rob Walker is all good too.

[almichie]

thanks for all the supportive post so far guys, all i can say is what happens happens. and i hope that something for everyone comes from this encounter. i have a lot of friends that have minis from all over the country and let me tell you they are not impressed. one of which uses jonspeed for a buisness he wont be any more and a lot of money was spent by him...

this isn't the end

[Jake Blues]

Jonspeed are local to me and I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole from the stuff I have heard about them. I get my stuff sorted from Southam Mini Metro Centre or Min-its

Lol! Jonnspeed get most of their spares from Min-Its and use Southam to carry out the rolling road work!

This is exactly why I disagree with this sort of post, you must sort it out with the company directly, it is an issue between them and you not any of us. It's a bit like a school playground on here sometimes.......and I know that comment will get me in trouble unless I am allowed the same "right to free speech" that everyone else is demanding!

[Jordie]

£3000 for 900miles. Get legal advice.

To be fair, if the company owned up to 50% liability and you accepted 50% could be down to other factors. then id be expecting them to refund 1500 quid and have it all done with. Then go somewhere with a good reputation for an engine build. Knowing never to use said company again after the trouble.

[Pie]

i.e. MED, Slark, Bill Richards.

[Jake Blues]

Jonspeed offered to rebuild the returned engine, at NO labour cost and parts at trade cost, this was not accepted by the customer.

[minisprint]

Edited by minisprint, 08 November 2007 - 07:29 PM.