118 replies to this topic

[Cooperman]

Is this not the case with so many modern cars.

I have a 2007 BMW 7-Series (E65), but I think the previous model had better styling and the one before that was better still.

The same might apply to the Mercedes S-Class range or the Audis.

To me the current Mondeo looks good and better than the earlier ones.

But those of us who love classic (i.e. old) cars, which must be all Mini owners on here, will find older cars more attractive in the main.

[mailman]

I like it too. It's got a sort of muscular feel to it. I'd certainly drive one, an S of course!

I think it needs to be judged as a new car first, then perhaps compared to previous iterations of Mini. Just my 2c.

[Chance]

Suppose that's true

If I look at the evolution of most Cars, I personally would probably find most new ones the worst looking, never thought about it tbf

Good point!!

[creakyjaws5533]

Looks pretty poor in my opinion they keep going further away from the mini is looks like it's on steroids not a resemble to the mini would rather they stopped making them as 'MINI' or kept the early ones at least they looked a little better.

[mab01uk]

New MINI – a growing legend…

MINI has produced a series of interesting images, which by way of introduction, puts the new F56 alongside the previous three generations of cars to wear the Mini nameplate.

http://www.aronline....growing-legend/

 

 

Edited by mab01uk, 18 November 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[Cooperman]

All car models have got bigger & bigger and the entire engine/drivelines have changed as well.

Take the Ford Fiesta or VW Golf as examples. The current ones are nothing like the originals, but as Ford & VW own those brand names they can continue to use & develop the models as they wish and n-one says that the current Fiesta is not  a Fiesta because it's nothing like the 'Bobcat Project' which was the original.

BMW bought the Mini brand name (and boy oh boy did it cost them!) so they can use it on any car they wish. At least it's assembled in England. Actually it's a nice mid-size modern car.

[Tamworthbay]

All car models have got bigger & bigger and the entire engine/drivelines have changed as well.
Take the Ford Fiesta or VW Golf as examples. The current ones are nothing like the originals, but as Ford & VW own those brand names they can continue to use & develop the models as they wish and n-one says that the current Fiesta is not  a Fiesta because it's nothing like the 'Bobcat Project' which was the original.
BMW bought the Mini brand name (and boy oh boy did it cost them!) so they can use it on any car they wish. At least it's assembled in England. Actually it's a nice mid-size modern car.

But the mk whatever fiesta has lineage back to the original. The new mini does not. The mk1 and 2 fiesta shared parts and some of the designers, engineers, fitters etc etc were the same. This carried on with the mk2/3 changeover etc allowing those cars to directly trace the lineage back. None of that occurred with the mini. A rich company came in, bought a name and thought 'how do we make some cash out of this?' If we look at the cars the new mini is almost exactly the opposite of the original. Original mini, small outside, big inside, utilitarian, affordable to all, understated. New mini, big outside, surprisingly small inside, ostentatious, expensive. If people like them, they should buy one but attempts to create a historical imperative are the work of marketing depts not engineers.

[Cooperman]

I guess that's quite correct Clive.

Personally I don't think of the BINI as a Mini in any way, just another modern medium sized car.

It was always a surprise when the Mini Cooper Register allowed BINI-Coopers to be registered as member's cars, but that's what's happened.

[Tamworthbay]

I guess that's quite correct Clive.
Personally I don't think of the BINI as a Mini in any way, just another modern medium sized car.
It was always a surprise when the Mini Cooper Register allowed BINI-Coopers to be registered as member's cars, but that's what's happened.

I think BMW have been very clever in the way they have marketed them. If it was just another small car then would sales have been as high? I doubt it. Nostalgia sells and this can be seen from the average age of new mini drivers. BMW are a business and their duty to the shareholders is to make cars that people want to buy, in creating the new mini they have done exactly that. Personally I think there are better cars out there for the money and that is why I wouldn't buy one. Why would I spend more money than I needed to on a car that isn't as good as others just because it looks like a totally different car? Doesn't make sense to me but then I am obviously not who they are aiming at!

[mab01uk]

Live from 9pm tonight (Mon 18/11), here:
http://www.mini.com/...i/en/index.html

[rids]

the exhausts are on the wrong side! apart from the one with the wrong centre pipe !

[mab01uk]

 

All car models have got bigger & bigger and the entire engine/drivelines have changed as well.
Take the Ford Fiesta or VW Golf as examples. The current ones are nothing like the originals, but as Ford & VW own those brand names they can continue to use & develop the models as they wish and n-one says that the current Fiesta is not  a Fiesta because it's nothing like the 'Bobcat Project' which was the original.
BMW bought the Mini brand name (and boy oh boy did it cost them!) so they can use it on any car they wish. At least it's assembled in England. Actually it's a nice mid-size modern car.

But the mk whatever fiesta has lineage back to the original. The new mini does not. The mk1 and 2 fiesta shared parts and some of the designers, engineers, fitters etc etc were the same. This carried on with the mk2/3 changeover etc allowing those cars to directly trace the lineage back. None of that occurred with the mini. A rich company came in, bought a name and thought 'how do we make some cash out of this?' If we look at the cars the new mini is almost exactly the opposite of the original. Original mini, small outside, big inside, utilitarian, affordable to all, understated. New mini, big outside, surprisingly small inside, ostentatious, expensive. If people like them, they should buy one but attempts to create a historical imperative are the work of marketing depts not engineers.

 

 

 

 

[mab01uk]

I guess that's quite correct Clive.

Personally I don't think of the BINI as a Mini in any way, just another modern medium sized car.

It was always a surprise when the Mini Cooper Register allowed BINI-Coopers to be registered as member's cars, but that's what's happened.

 

John Cooper pictured below with a classic Mini Cooper and an early prototype of the New MINI Cooper in August 1998.

[mab01uk]

Former Rover Engineer on the new MINI Development
This 'Insider' article posted below, found in an old issue of "CAR" magazine from July 2001, makes interesting reading................... 'a former Rover engineer tells at first hand the role Rover had to play in the development of the new MINI' :

New MINI: more cool Britannia than BMW will admit?
A Former engineer is furious at BMW's claims that Rover had no involvement in the New Mini. It was, he claims, a very British affair.

Robin Ford doesn't fit the stereotypical image of the British automotive engineer. He's well spoken, articulate… and pretty fed up. Within hours of the last issue of CAR magazine hitting the streets, Ford had e-mailed us in anger at BMW's claims that 'Rover hadn't been much help' in designing and engineering the new Mini, especially in terms of the unique front-drive chassis.

'That made my blood boil' exclaims Ford. 'The brief from BMW was for a MacPherson strut front and Z-axle rear-axle layout. That was it. There are no BMW components in the systems and they were entirely designed at Rover's Gaydon engineering centre in Warwickshire. The geometry, component stiffness, durability, compliances – all were specified and designed by Rover engineers'.

Ford says he should know, because he was the front-axle system engineer responsible for the packaging, design and integration of the Mini chassis. 'When we started, very little was defined. BMW didn't ask for any BMW components, it let us go away and get on with it.

'Even the Mini's engine and transmission was engineered at Longbridge and Gaydon. The engine was worked on at Powertrain, who also did the gearbox, which is based on the unit used by Rover. The Cooper S uses a Getrag box, but the development was carried out at Longbridge. I'd say there were hundreds of British engineers on Mini, maybe as many as 300 or 400'.

From the outset, Ford reveals that it was Rover employees who turned BMW's vision into reality. 'We started development with simulators. There were two types: Rover 200s with a mock Mini chassis and 200s with the Mini's Pentagon engine. The supercharged K-series simulator was a cracking car. In the end, over 200 simulators were built at Longbridge and we learnt a lot. The idea was to get the design to what's called 'production release' a year or so before the Mini was due to go on sale. The Mini concept car the press saw at the Frankfurt show was built in summer 1997, with glassfibre panels taken straight off the clay styling model and then fitted to a Punto chassis. (See Video)

'We knew what the Mini had to be – the best handling front drive car in the world. We were very happy with a Z-axle concept, although it's not great for space. Some people also argued for double wishbones at the front, but BMW insisted that the Mini was a BMW and had to have struts. However, it wasn't easy to make the front suspension work. The Mini has a very compact front end.

'We worked very hard to minimise torque steer and the complexity and detail work in the chassis is on a much higher level than under a Puma or Lupo. Success has a lot to do with component stiffness. For example, the Mini has a two piece box section chassis arm with 1.5 metres of welding in it. The flex in the suspension components is less than 10 percent of that in the bushes. The stiffness of the mounting points is good for NVH'.

Ford says he is proudest of the Mini's steering system because, he claims, he was responsible for changing the system late in the day. 'Up until 1999, the Mini's steering was fully electric with a powered worm-drive. But it was almost surreal: there was no kick-back or feedback. On rutted roads you couldn't feel anything, even at the limit of adhesion. I had overall responsibility for the whole front end and didn't like it.

'The steering department said it could be fixed with a tweak to the steering, so BMW told us to get it sorted. But instead I knocked together a simulator with an electro-hydraulic Rover 25 rack. The original simulator had a Ford Escort rack modified for the right geometry and it felt good, but BMW drove both and chose mine. Fully electric steering was a pet project at Rover and several engineers had tried it in a Mondeo, where it worked well. It was just inappropriate in a Mini – there was no joy.

'It was very hard to package a steering pump on the Mini engine. It's extraordinarily tight under the bonnet. We had to re-write the rule book on tyre and component clearances. In fact we threw the rule book away. There's meant to be 15mm clearance for tyres. Now there is actually a benign foul in extreme circumstances. It was a packaging nightmare – or miracle – and only got done thanks to computer-aided design. We needed a lot of suspension travel to cope with bumps and the 17 inch wheels on the Cooper S were an absolute nightmare to accommodate. I think the sweetest handling Mini was one with smallest tyres – it's a pity the run-flat tyres were added late in the day'.

Robin Ford's involvement with the Mini came to an abrupt end in early 2000 when BMW suddenly asked for the Mini computer files to be hurriedly downloaded to German hard drives. 'BMW had finished the assembly building at Longbridge and wanted to ramp up production for a January 2001 on-sale date. It all looked fantastic when we went to a BMW pep talk in February 2000 explaining what they were going to do. The old dyed-in-the-wool Rover people were sceptical but I was taken in'. By mid March BMW's board announced it's intention to dispose of Rover and Ford left the project.

Now running his own sports car manufacturer, FBS, Ford looks back on Mini as 'a project apart. Some at Rover thought all the effort and money that went into Mini was a distraction from the main job at Rover'. And they might be right.

Edited by Paul Horrell and Hilton Holloway (CAR Magazine July 2001)

(Note: CAR 'Insider' article posted in a previous thread...........added here to go with the video).

(mab01uk Note: Since this article was published a former Rover engineer on the MINI project at Cowley told me the above engineers name wasn't Robin Ford it was Robin Hall).

Quote from the now defunct FBS website seems to back this up:-
"Andrew Barber and Robin Hall have worked for some of the leading names in the motor industry, including Lotus, Ricardo, Prodrive and Rover. Taking the last of these as an example, they were both heavily involved in engineering the MINI (Barber on powertrain, Hall on front suspension) and are understandably keen to point out that the car was definitely developed in the UK, however much German money may have gone into the project."

http://www.theminifo...1997/?p=1297947

Edited by mab01uk, 18 November 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Tamworthbay]

I guess that's quite correct Clive.Personally I don't think of the BINI as a Mini in any way, just another modern medium sized car.It was always a surprise when the Mini Cooper Register allowed BINI-Coopers to be registered as member's cars, but that's what's happened.

 John Cooper pictured below with a classic Mini Cooper and an early prototype of the New MINI Cooper in August 1998.

All that proves is that john cooper was a businessman who agreed to BMW using his name in return for money. Again, its good business for both. But that doesn't change the history. John cooper can't have any input into the latest models as he sadly died several years ago. It's purely a marketing strategy, it shows the power of the cooper minis in our automotive heritage but that doesn't reflect on the new mini. That doesn't make BMW a bad company, as I said above their duty is to the shareholders and they are doing that very well. But there is no engineering lineage between the two cars (or multiple cars now with all the additions) and this can never be changed. That is why the relationship is fundamentally different to that of say the escort and focus. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent depends on your point of view. I think BMW have been very clever and its good that a few jobs have been kept in Britain, but BMW asset stripped Rover and left a lot of workers without a future or a pension so they will undoubtedly have a view on this. Whether that is relevant to anyone looking at buying the car depends how important they feel that way of dealing was.