118 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

 

 

All that proves is that john cooper was a businessman who agreed to BMW using his name in return for money. Again, its good business for both. But that doesn't change the history. John cooper can't have any input into the latest models as he sadly died several years ago. It's purely a marketing strategy, it shows the power of the cooper minis in our automotive heritage but that doesn't reflect on the new mini. That doesn't make BMW a bad company, as I said above their duty is to the shareholders and they are doing that very well. But there is no engineering lineage between the two cars (or multiple cars now with all the additions) and this can never be changed. That is why the relationship is fundamentally different to that of say the escort and focus. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent depends on your point of view. I think BMW have been very clever and its good that a few jobs have been kept in Britain, but BMW asset stripped Rover and left a lot of workers without a future or a pension so they will undoubtedly have a view on this. Whether that is relevant to anyone looking at buying the car depends how important they feel that way of dealing was.

 

 

It was actually British owners BAe and their property arm Arlington Securities who asset stripped Rover over 5 years demolishing most of the Cowley site to the ground before selling the land off as a retail park and then selling on the remaining company assets (as soon as the UK governments 5 years minimum ownership period was up) at a vast profit to BMW. It was also actually the British owners of MG Rover known as the 'Phoenix Four' who (long after BMW sold MG Rover) robbed the pensions, etc......BMW invested in Cowley and new models unlike the previous BAe British management who had run it into the ground and not invested in decent new model that people wanted to buy.....read the books and the facts first.

 

The Phoenix Four turned Rover workers' dreams to ashes

MG Rover employees helped four local businessmen take over. But they made millions, shut the factory and left us with nothing

http://www.theguardi...r-rover-workers

Edited by mab01uk, 18 November 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[Tamworthbay]

All that proves is that john cooper was a businessman who agreed to BMW using his name in return for money. Again, its good business for both. But that doesn't change the history. John cooper can't have any input into the latest models as he sadly died several years ago. It's purely a marketing strategy, it shows the power of the cooper minis in our automotive heritage but that doesn't reflect on the new mini. That doesn't make BMW a bad company, as I said above their duty is to the shareholders and they are doing that very well. But there is no engineering lineage between the two cars (or multiple cars now with all the additions) and this can never be changed. That is why the relationship is fundamentally different to that of say the escort and focus. Whether that is good, bad or indifferent depends on your point of view. I think BMW have been very clever and its good that a few jobs have been kept in Britain, but BMW asset stripped Rover and left a lot of workers without a future or a pension so they will undoubtedly have a view on this. Whether that is relevant to anyone looking at buying the car depends how important they feel that way of dealing was.

 
It was actually British owners BAe and their property arm Arlington Securities who asset stripped Rover over 5 years demolishing most of the Cowley site to the ground before selling the land off as a retail park and it was actually the MG Rover Phoenix Four who robbed the pensions, etc......BMW invested in Cowley and new models unlike the British management who ran it into the ground.....read the books and the facts first.
http://www.theguardi...r-rover-workers

I don't want to take this thread off topic any further, that's not fair. Suffice to say I don't need to read articles to know what happened. I work with people who were there, some of my family were there. The Phoenix group are seen by them as little more than scum but it was BMW who caused the problems, the rest was just a snowball that couldn't be stopped. The common thing they all say is why didn't they stick with Honda. Would it have worked out any better? Who knows? I have to admit it does always strike me as slightly ironic that so may people fit Honda engines in their minis. It does leave you with a sense of what if?

[campaj1]

Is this not the case with so many modern cars.

I have a 2007 BMW 7-Series (E65), but I think the previous model had better styling and the one before that was better still.

The same might apply to the Mercedes S-Class range or the Audis.

To me the current Mondeo looks good and better than the earlier ones.

But those of us who love classic (i.e. old) cars, which must be all Mini owners on here, will find older cars more attractive in the main.

Yes, what about the Range Rover? The new (L405) one looks gaudy as hell whereas the L322 was a masterclass in elegant restraint. 

That said, some new cars look better. To stay on the Land Rover theme, the new Sport looks much better. Other examples include the Kia Sportage, Peugeot 308, next gen C class etc... there will always be archetypal examples of the breed within each long-running model line though (E.g. Porsche 993).

Edited by campaj1, 18 November 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[campaj1]

Also, if we were to judge the new BINI in isolation it is still too large (VW up! etc shows that small can still be done, in fact that car and the Fiat Panda are far closer to the Issigonis concept than the BINI), too expensive and too retro in terms of its design. If I had to have a retro new car I'd have a Fiat 500 Twinair with a bucketload of change.

Edited by campaj1, 18 November 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Tanya]

Looks wise, it looks like a MINI to me!  I don't have problem with MINI, but for me it falls into the modern car category (at the moment).  Generally, I'm not interested in modern cars and I'm not very good at telling them apart unless they have a radical change, and for me looks wise (I know it's internals are all different), it looks very similar - you look at it and can instantly tell it's a MINI.  However, I do have an interest in MINI as it is inextricably linked to Mini is many ways and I also because it's a Cowley built car and I have strong links with the Plant.  

 

I'm well aware of BMW's slick marketing and extremely grateful as it seems to work and people buy the cars for what I feel is eye watering sums of money.  However, having spoken to MINI enthusiasts, they love their MINIs just as much as Mini people love there Minis and MINI does have a large and growing following.  Quite a few are enthusiasts who used to own Minis, but for one reason or another no longer can, but still want to be part of the Mini/MINI scene.   

Edited by Tanya, 18 November 2013 - 09:19 PM.

[HarrysMini]

I love the MINI, we even own an R53 and it drives really well. And personally, I don't think there are many hot hatches that can beat it.

But what they've done styling wise to this last one has just ruined it for me, it just looks like all the extra bits of trim have been glued on as an afterthought to try and make it meaner looking. They've also made it too big, but I would put money on the fact that it isn't much (if at all) bigger on the inside than the previous generations.

[campaj1]

I'm interested both in modern and classic cars. I'm just aware that Mini's brand has the potential to be far more powerful if the cars were to be smaller and more honest in terms of their design. Mini as a brand transcends normal trends in what a car represents to people: i.e. that bigger and more powerful is always better. It is unique in the same way that Range Rover as a brand is amongst 4x4s. This is why it saddens me to see the brand mis-managed, just to become the junior brand of BMW.

[Tanya]

I wonder if Mini has received the investment and had the usual decent upgrades every 7 years or so, how far away this new MINI would have been to that?  On the other hand, would Mini have been so iconic (and attractive to BMW) if it had received the usual upgrades, and is part of its charm/desirability is that fundamentally Mini's shape (saloon), didn't change in 41 years?    

[campaj1]

For the original (Issigonis) car, of course some of the charm was found in the fact that it was an unchanging icon in a fast-shifting world. But with the MINI, the car cannot afford to rest on it's design laurels, as, to be frank, it relied upon catching the trend and being a zeitgeist car. Such cars have to change to survive fashion changes, e.g. with the Freelander. 

[mab01uk]

New MINI Cooper 2014 review - Auto Express
http://www.autoexpre...-specs-revealed


 

[Tanya]

I'm currently sat in BMW Group's offices at Bracknell as I've bought Henry, our RSP down to be along side a couple of the new MINIs for Bracknell's internal launch. I've sat in one of the new MINIs and to be honest it's all a little wasted on me as I'm not generally not interested in modern cars, I purely view them as a means to get from A to B in (as cheaply as possible) and if they get scratched and dented along the way, that's fine. I guess what MINI does well is making a MINI look like a MINI (and also use styling cues from Mini) so that even the modern car uneducated likes of me can recognise it - it does stand out from the crowd.

Building cars that people want to buy is something BMW seem to have a knack for, and they are also very good at selling them for vast sums of money! I think the predicted build for MINI back in 2001 was 100,000 units a year, and I think last year's build at Cowley was 185,000 units - I guess that's what you call success. BMW are also strong in global markets, with 80% of MINI production for the export market.

I have no doubt the new MINI will sell well. The general public do very much connect MINI with Mini (partly through BMW's slick marketing) which has now developed into many people having a fondness for MINI and seeing it as an icon. I'm assuming that this is very helpful for the export market.

Cowley has not been so successful or produced such a good car for at least the last 50 years. While I like to believe and will continue to do so, that nothing coming out of Cowley can beat Maestros and Montegos, I think I might struggle to debate that in a serious argument!

I think this new MINI is not only good for BMW, but it's good for Cowley and Mini generally.

Here's a report of the launch - http://www.honestjoh...-mini-unveiled/

Edited by Tanya, 22 November 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[campaj1]

^^ well done at getting a peek at the new car!

For the same money though I'd have an ex demo every time, or just save some money and get a VW UP.

True, BMW are good at building cars that people want. The main BMW range is highly competitive.

I think the fashion item thing works a lot more overseas, as they haven't had the same experience of the original Mini, particularly in the states, where the car looks smaller compared to most cars.

I don't to the subscribe to the MINI being iconic though, as it relies too much on me-too styling.  

[greenwheels]

I don't want to take this thread off topic any further, that's not fair. Suffice to say I don't need to read articles to know what happened. I work with people who were there, some of my family were there. The Phoenix group are seen by them as little more than scum but it was BMW who caused the problems, the rest was just a snowball that couldn't be stopped. The common thing they all say is why didn't they stick with Honda. Would it have worked out any better? Who knows? I have to admit it does always strike me as slightly ironic that so may people fit Honda engines in their minis. It does leave you with a sense of what if?

 

Off topic - off topic. I hate to see this sort of thread on The Mini Forum.

Just one thing - I particularly don't like people saying this happened and that happened, so this is the conclusion to draw. I was there and I can tell you most of what you read in the papers is/was shear bu*****t! There were many routes the company could have taken and most of the evidence is not in the public domain so there is no point in discussing it now. Suffice to say the BMW MINI is helping my pension so please buy one, but as a lover of old cars, I like to read here about my greatest love the (so called 'Classic') Mini.

 

To edit and clarify - I agree largely with Tamworthy's comments, so read my comments in that light. By 'off topic' I mean the thread is not about the Mini.

Edited by greenwheels, 19 November 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[Tanya]

It's an interesting one as to whether or not MINI really is iconic and how that fits in with Mini. I guess another question is who does and how do you define iconic? Clearly BMW's marketing is geared to it being iconic, which in turn has lead the masses (particularly overseas) to believe MINI is iconic which in a small way (or maybe not small way, I'm not a marketing expert) helps to sell MINI. I guess it could be something of a self fulfilling prophecy.

For my modern car, I tend to buy as cheaply as I can (overall, including running and maintenance etc) to meet my needs. My usual practise is to buy something between one and three years old and run it into the ground, denting it and scratching it (generally, others do that to it) as I go. It really is a lovely feeling not to care about your car, it can have a great dent in its side and so long as it goes, that's fine. I have no interest in modern gadgets (I consider modern gadgets to be remote central locking, electric front windows etc, I haven't a clue what 'modern' modern gadgets are!), it just needs to get from A to B. My current daily is my mother-in-law's 2002 Agila which I inherited when she died. It's slow, very unglamorous but not too expensive to run and reliable. You pay for style and as style doesn't matter to me, I'm not paying for it!

Edited by Tanya, 19 November 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Badboytunes]

As a MINI fan I think my current R56 will be my last, as the next new car I purchase will not be an F56. I hate the interior and dont like the xterior too much either. There are more negative comments than positive from the MINI fraternity. BMW should have listened to the people that will be buying it....................