106 replies to this topic

[minisprint]

also i would like to add its not illegal to sell a v5 it is illegal to use in on another car though! i think some one should write to the mags about this!lets see what they have to say!

It is illegal to sell a V5, you don't own a vehicle identity, the DVLA does, and they can revoke a vehicles identity at any time. Therefore you cannot sell what you do not own!

how do you sell a private plate?

[paulrockliffe]

also i would like to add its not illegal to sell a v5 it is illegal to use in on another car though! i think some one should write to the mags about this!lets see what they have to say!

It is illegal to sell a V5, you don't own a vehicle identity, the DVLA does, and they can revoke a vehicles identity at any time. Therefore you cannot sell what you do not own!

how do you sell a private plate?

With the DVLA's permission!

[Dan]

Depends on your definition of a private plate. Most of what people refer to as private plates are actually just normal plates that look like they mean something which is usually down to pure chance. You can sell these as you can any plate by transfering the reg onto a retention certificate, or by transfering it directly to another vehicle. This does nothing to alter the identity of a vehicle as the reg number is simply a number that the car is known by. Like changing your name by deed pole does not change your credit rating or bankruptcy status. But you never actually own the number, you own the right to use it. The DVLA can cancel this right at any time and the number itself remains their property. I think the V5 remains their property too and that's why you can't sell a V5. In any event a V5 is just a record that a registration exists on the list for a particular vehicle and itself means little.

A real private plate (as in one that actually said CYRIL or EBENEZER for example and was registered as such) is non transferable and I don't think they grant them any more anyway.

I've been thinking about this all afternoon now and trying to decide what to say. I definitely agree that we should not be allowing anyone to sell anything illegal on the site any more than we should condone anything else illegal. But I have to also agree that there is a lot of dodgy ground when it comes to reporting what we believe to be ringers. The whole question of when the modifications were done and whether they were done in such a manner that it can be considered part of the car's identity comes up and it's just too risky I think. Jammy and others have said 'What about the classic Cooper S that needs restoring and you have to buy a Mk4 shell for it?'. Well that isn't allowed under the current rules anyway because you must use a shell of 'Original specification'. But then there's John's Mk3 car with a Mk4 shell which is in a grey area. I mean, it isn't because when it was done it was perfectly legal but now it would be tricky to do. The shells certainly look very similar externally but officially it is listed in the sales material as a Mk4 shell and it isn't quite right. But then who would know to look at it if they weren't an expert? I think I'll go with what appears to be the concensus and say that we should be rooting out illegal ads and ejecting repeat offenders from our site but not reporting cars except in very exceptional circumstances. Maybe where we know for a fact that someone specific (and I don't just mean one of our friends when I say this) is being ripped off.

Oh and who was that nutter who went off the deep end earlier? Where do these people come from?

[phils sprite]

Depends on your definition of a private plate. Most of what people refer to as private plates are actually just normal plates that look like they mean something which is usually down to pure chance. You can sell these as you can any plate by transfering the reg onto a retention certificate, or by transfering it directly to another vehicle. This does nothing to alter the identity of a vehicle as the reg number is simply a number that the car is known by. Like changing your name by deed pole does not change your credit rating or bankruptcy status. But you never actually own the number, you own the right to use it. The DVLA can cancel this right at any time and the number itself remains their property. I think the V5 remains their property too and that's why you can't sell a V5. In any event a V5 is just a record that a registration exists on the list for a particular vehicle and itself means little.

A real private plate (as in one that actually said CYRIL or EBENEZER for example and was registered as such) is non transferable and I don't think they grant them any more anyway.

I've been thinking about this all afternoon now and trying to decide what to say. I definitely agree that we should not be allowing anyone to sell anything illegal on the site any more than we should condone anything else illegal. But I have to also agree that there is a lot of dodgy ground when it comes to reporting what we believe to be ringers. The whole question of when the modifications were done and whether they were done in such a manner that it can be considered part of the car's identity comes up and it's just too risky I think. Jammy and others have said 'What about the classic Cooper S that needs restoring and you have to buy a Mk4 shell for it?'. Well that isn't allowed under the current rules anyway because you must use a shell of 'Original specification' But then there's John's Mk3 car with a Mk4 shell which is in a grey area. I mean, it isn't because when it was done it was perfectly legal but now it would be tricky to do. The shells certainly look very similar externally but officially it is listed in the sales material as a Mk4 shell and it isn't quite right. But then who would know to look at it if they weren't an expert? I think I'll go with what appears to be the concensus and say that we should be rooting out illegal ads and ejecting repeat offenders from our site but not reporting cars except in very exceptional circumstances. Maybe where we know for a fact that someone specific (and I don't just mean one of our friends when I say this) is being ripped off.

Oh and who was that nutter who went off the deep end earlier? Where do these people come from?

whoooooops sorry mate u probably ment me! dunno bout the whole thing and just dived in deep i know sorry but jammy basturd sorted me out and helped me understand it abit better.

by the way i come from ashford in kent TN24 9AH hehe

honestly sorry about erlier though phil

[Dan]

No mate, I was talking about that Minishorty chap who went mental and got himself banned.

[phils sprite]

oh thats ok then hehe

cheers

[Stoo]

My humble 2cents

Dobbing someone in I really don't agree with but a forum should be self policing. If someone does something we don't agree with then we should tell them (politely). Just look how many posts identify ringers on ebay. I think there should be a sticky informing of the policy not to sell 'bare' V5s if that's what people want.

If we were to take the the moral high ground on every post then there'd be a few people with lengthy driving bans. I've even found people linking to vids of themselves racing on the public roads. Now if someone dobbed them in to the police then they'd be enough evidence on this forum to get them a police (criminal not motoring!) record/ fine / ban etc etc.

Do we really want to go that way ??

[Marky Tizz]

Well said that man ^^

[paulrockliffe]

At the end of the day, would any evidence you could provide via this forum stand up in court? I find it hard to believe that there is any real proof of any ilegal activity here, because the truth is impossible to ascertain unless you've seen the car in question in person and have access to all the facts etc. As for linking to videos etc, can you proove who posted it, who is driving the car, even the registration of the car in the video? Before someone mentions IP addresses, they don't prove who was sitting at the computer.

[phils sprite]

yup i agree with stoo too!!!! hehe

i think the whole thing might be getting over the top i cant agree with reporting people.

phil

[pinch]

this is great....... very funny to read at times. if people wanted to grass everyone in that has a dubious identity on their car then some people would be very busy! there's examples everywhere, just look on the cover of the new minworld, the red bike engined sportspack shell with 1960's reg! there's a line in the feature saying something about . . . .' a 1960s mini was bought and the shell deemed to rusty to bother with, so a late shell was found to replace it with....'

everyone is in the mini scene for the same reason, FUN, and fair enough, some people do buy dodgy cars, but they should do their homework first, or seek advice through reputable sources, like TMF etc. how people go about having their fun is down to them, and shouldn't be dictated by a few people who think it's their right to report them. i think it's taking things a bit too far by reporting people to the dvla, but i think it's good for the forum to ban the advertising of log books etc.

hope i've made some sense in the above.......

[Guess-Works.com]

i think some one should write to the mags about this!lets see what they have to say!

I have done this twice on both the subjects of V5's and more importantly reshells, and their open promotion of this practice through their articles... and believe it or not, neither have ever replied.... This is one of the reasons I no longer buy/subscribe to Mini Magazines.

However, it is NOT illegal to reshell a vehicle, but it IS illegal to use the identity of the original vehicle. If you have enough parts of the DONOR vehicle then you are able to use the identity of that vehicle, so buying a rolling shell with v5 is perfectly above board. Buying a rolling shell without v5 is also totally legal, however if you have no way to find the identity of the vehicle ( eg no vin either etched or tag / engine number / commision number etc ) then it will be deemed from undetermined source. When you have undertermined source or there is not enough of the donor vehicle then the vehicle should go through the SVA test and receive a "Q" plate. I can only remeber one article in a magazine which has actually had a "Q" plated vehicle as the subject.

Just to open yet another can of worms, Radically altered vehicles also fall under the same "Q" plate/SVA scheme... It is generally accepted that engine conversions are OK, and you retain the original vehicle details, so for example your VTEC conversion has replaced the engine, transmission, front suspension, front subframe, possibly brakes, and maybe even Steering rack with non original pattern items.... under the rebuilt/radically altered vehicles points scheme, you don't actually have enough of the original vehicle to retain the identity, silly as it sounds I know, just imagine what would happen if the DVLA/VOSA got pedantic about that and how the chuff Z-cars get away with it I don't know.

[phils sprite]

couldnt agree with you more pinch!!! hehe

phil.

[koss]

The vehicle must score eight or more points to retain the original registration mark. If less than eight points are scored or a second-hand or modified chassis or altered monocoque bodyshell is used, an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA), single vehicle approval (SVA) or motorcycle single vehicle approval (MSVA) certificate will be required to register the vehicle. A 'Q' prefix registration number will be allocated.
Scoring components

The following values will be allocated to the major components used:

* chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit – monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
* suspension = 2 points
* axles = 2 points
* transmission = 2 points
* steering assembly = 2 points
* engine = 1 point

You can also gain more points with interior,lights etc etc etc. But you must provide as much evidance and photos as you can.

Zcars mini shell 5 points
steering assembly 2 points
front axle 1 point.

But who has sva tested a zcars mini that is the question.

[miniboo]

Pete is going to i think