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Another Log Book Scam


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#61 Cooperman

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:49 PM

That is similar to what I said a while back about my 1310 cc Cooper 'S' rally car. With its history of 32 historic rallies and 5 outright wins it is worth quite a lot. It is/was a well-known car and has been featured in both of the 'comics'.

 

So what would I do if I comprehensively damaged it on an event where it was not covered by insurance?. Would I just scrap it and sell off the bits which were still OK? Or would I use a used and restored Mk.1 shell and re-build the 'S' into it with everything built exactly as before the crash?

 

I will leave you all to guess ;D .  It's easy to be 'holier than thou' when it can never be an issue for you, but in the real world things are different. Whilst many of us do enjoy competing in motor-sport, we can't just afford to scrap a £40k classic car and when a simple solution is available who would not do exactly that. To think otherwise is, quite simply, naive.

 

To answer the above from MIGLIACARS, I think I might just build a 970 'S' rally car and use it on historic rallies or let my son and grandson use and enjoy it. With some class wins at international level it would generate its own value. 

 

By the way, it's not only with Minis that this happens. I know a lot of members of the Sunbeam Tiger O.C. both here and in the USA. Now Sunbeam Tigers do rust, just like Minis and many owners have used Sunbeam Alpine shells in order to keep the Tiger in existence. Tiger shells are slightly different, but with some careful modification they are almost identical. In this country the Tiger O.C. accepts this as necessary, but in California these 'hybrids' are not so well regarded although they are beginning to realise that unless this is done the numbers will simply decline. My son is currently building a 1978 Ford Escort RS2000. As a base he has a 1978 Escort 1.3 2-door and we have modified the body-shell to full Escort RS specification. Once done it will be absolutely identical to a 'genuine' RS2000 and will be accepted in competition as such. Other competitors have no issues with this and the car will be worth a lot of money when completed with c.175 bhp. I am looking forward to driving it later this year.

 

It is certainly the same with Cortinas and I know of a Vauxhall VX4/90 which started life as a Victor 1600 Super, but is now a full works rally replica.

 

The Federation of Historic Vehicles has been lobbying the Gov't to allow re-shells where this saves a classic car.

 

On the subject of illegality, speeding is also illegal as are lots of other things, so let's not become paranoid about which laws we like and which we don't, then have a go at those who don't have the same points of view.



#62 mk1coopers

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 07:17 PM

The trouble with expensive cars with added history is that there is always going to be a bun fight over who has what, I know of 3 cars that all claim to be the same car, one over here that has the original body number still attached, and 2 over sea's, one with an (alleged) dubious history of springing up from nothing more that the paperwork and the other that has a continuous history from when it was exported and raced, guess which car has the 'famous' number plate.......yep the one that (again allegedly) sprang from nothing more than a piece of paper, so you have 2 people that have cars that have a direct link to the ones in all the old pictures (in that they are physically the cars) that the owners cannot sell with the correct plate so they may not get the same money if sold, and the one that has the plate who potentially could gain many thousands of pound just because of the letters and numbers attached to it, this happens all the time with raced / rally cars (especially) plus road cars.

People might consider selling log books for profit, fine for you if you can live with that, just don't complain if it all goes pear-shaped and you find yourself in a spot of bother because of it, I would never buy a car without extensive research with the right people to make sure it was the 'real deal', being re-shelled by the Works or Coopers is one thing, starting with Joe Bloggs and a piece of paper is another, that's setting out with an intent to deceive. I know people who have been very honest with the descriptions of their cars when selling them, only to find the next time it's up for sale all the genuine details of what happened to the car are mysteriously lost, just leaving the tale of how it did this that and the other whilst being driven by X / Y or Z

Edited by mk1coopers, 15 February 2017 - 07:18 PM.


#63 r3k1355

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:56 PM

That is similar to what I said a while back about my 1310 cc Cooper 'S' rally car. With its history of 32 historic rallies and 5 outright wins it is worth quite a lot. It is/was a well-known car and has been featured in both of the 'comics'.

 

So what would I do if I comprehensively damaged it on an event where it was not covered by insurance?. Would I just scrap it and sell off the bits which were still OK? Or would I use a used and restored Mk.1 shell and re-build the 'S' into it with everything built exactly as before the crash?

 

I will leave you all to guess ;D .  It's easy to be 'holier than thou' when it can never be an issue for you, but in the real world things are different. Whilst many of us do enjoy competing in motor-sport, we can't just afford to scrap a £40k classic car and when a simple solution is available who would not do exactly that. To think otherwise is, quite simply, naive.

 

On the subject of illegality, speeding is also illegal as are lots of other things, so let's not become paranoid about which laws we like and which we don't, then have a go at those who don't have the same points of view.

 

What you do with your own car is your own business, it only becomes an issue when you ask someone for tens of thousands of pounds for it (I'm sure a successful S rally car is worth an awful lot of money)

Question then becomes, will you be so honest and frank then??

 

Personally I think re-shelling should be legalised to enable classics to be saved, but at the same time it should be documented so there's no deception.


Edited by r3k1355, 15 February 2017 - 08:58 PM.


#64 CityEPete

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:04 PM

The big distinction for me is that in the case of the rally car is that it is at least a real car, even a seriously damaged car would provide a large proportion of period correct parts and a paper trail of provenance so it's just the ethics of killing a base model mini to fix it, on the other hand these cars on ebay that are just 80s city e models aren't going to provide ANYTHING other than the already dodgy vin and v5, where are you going to get the complete mostly genuine 60s Cooper S to go with it?

Of course once the new mk1 shells are readily available they'll be no need to kill the base models in the name of historic rallying will there ;-)

#65 CityEPete

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:09 PM

That is similar to what I said a while back about my 1310 cc Cooper 'S' rally car. With its history of 32 historic rallies and 5 outright wins it is worth quite a lot. It is/was a well-known car and has been featured in both of the 'comics'.
 
So what would I do if I comprehensively damaged it on an event where it was not covered by insurance?. Would I just scrap it and sell off the bits which were still OK? Or would I use a used and restored Mk.1 shell and re-build the 'S' into it with everything built exactly as before the crash?
 
I will leave you all to guess ;D .  It's easy to be 'holier than thou' when it can never be an issue for you, but in the real world things are different. Whilst many of us do enjoy competing in motor-sport, we can't just afford to scrap a £40k classic car and when a simple solution is available who would not do exactly that. To think otherwise is, quite simply, naive.
 
On the subject of illegality, speeding is also illegal as are lots of other things, so let's not become paranoid about which laws we like and which we don't, then have a go at those who don't have the same points of view.

 
What you do with your own car is your own business, it only becomes an issue when you ask someone for tens of thousands of pounds for it (I'm sure a successful S rally car is worth an awful lot of money)
Question then becomes, will you be so honest and frank then??
 
Personally I think re-shelling should be legalised to enable classics to be saved, but at the same time it should be documented so there's no deception.

Even though I'm seen as the grumpy ringer hater on here I actually agree with this, if you could prove you purchased an 850 legally to reshell the 1275 S and put both together but have to relinquish the 850 v5 to the dvla for example that would be a happy middle ground, there's no need for mpi coopers to be on tax exempt vins and they look **** with black plates anyway, lol.

#66 Dusky

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 08:58 AM


 


 


If people are stupid enough to spend 40k on a mini there will always be a market for these. It really does stink

Stupid!!!!!   
 
Some people in this world are mega rich and £50000 is not a lot for some to pay for a mini cooper s, This doesnt make them stupid!!!! 
Why carnt a mini be worth so much. This iconic car changed the car industry forever and has and still in achieving so much!!!
 
If a E type is worth £250000 why carnt a mini be worth £50000 plus...
 
How can people be sure they are spending 40 grand on the genuine article when they have log books on sale on ebay? There's a certain mini spares shop 10 miles from me that has had a few listed recently. Now you would feel 'stupid' if you got caught out
 
Might be the same shop I mentioned earlier in this thread....
If they're the same shop that sold me that unusable crank I'd be happy to call the police. You ll see me commenting on their Facebook page once a month, he keeps ignoring me while he promised last year in summer he would "fix" it.

#67 GT Jimmy

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:24 AM

m+ms?

If people are stupid enough to spend 40k on a mini there will always be a market for these. It really does stink

Stupid!!!!!   
 
Some people in this world are mega rich and £50000 is not a lot for some to pay for a mini cooper s, This doesnt make them stupid!!!! 
Why carnt a mini be worth so much. This iconic car changed the car industry forever and has and still in achieving so much!!!
 
If a E type is worth £250000 why carnt a mini be worth £50000 plus...
How can people be sure they are spending 40 grand on the genuine article when they have log books on sale on ebay? There's a certain mini spares shop 10 miles from me that has had a few listed recently. Now you would feel 'stupid' if you got caught out
Might be the same shop I mentioned earlier in this thread....
If they're the same shop that sold me that unusable crank I'd be happy to call the police. You ll see me commenting on their Facebook page once a month, he keeps ignoring me while he promised last year in summer he would "fix" it.


#68 Dusky

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:55 AM

That's the one!

#69 GT Jimmy

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 01:06 PM

That's the one!

I went in looking for a floor panel for the GT. It felt like they couldn't be arsed to serve me. Dodgy mate

#70 Screwdriver

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:27 PM

With respect to all involved, a car is worth what someone is willing to put cold hard cash down for it. I purchased my 96 JDM mini for <£8K a year ago. It's the 35th anniversary edition with factory aircon, leather and no rust.

 

 A year later, I've received a firm and serious cash offer for £10K including a no questions asked cash deposit to hold the car. I love the car too much to sell but it speaks volumes to the rising desirability levels of the car!



#71 CityEPete

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:19 PM

Was it from a Nigerian Prince? Lol

#72 Screwdriver

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:27 PM

Hardly - a chap from Hamstead with hardly any melanin in him at all.



#73 CityEPete

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 08:50 PM

Lol

#74 Spencer1969

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 07:20 PM

Hi Guys. I'm interested in this thread. What actually constitutes a mini? Is it the engine, the bodywork or just a metal plate with the VIN?

#75 Rocket.

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 07:37 PM

Hi Guys. I'm interested in this thread. What actually constitutes a mini? Is it the engine, the bodywork or just a metal plate with the VIN?


It's at the very least the shell with the correct Vin attached and
the proper logbook

Everything else is basically just bolted to the shell




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